bjack on 15/6/2016 at 20:22
It sounds familiar. Trump types in the UK. :ebil: Some people do not like to be told what they can and cannot do, especially if those things go against the national identity (whatever that may be in the UK now...) The UK has always sort of had just one foot into the EU anyway. No Euro is a glaring example of that fact. Why allow some wankers in Brussels dictate what goes on in Nottingham? Why be the support system for largess in Greece or France for that matter? Didn’t you pull yourselves out of the dismal 70’s? Why go back to that?
No surprise, I do not like the New World Order. I despise the World Government. It is monumentally in opposition of the minority. It is tyranny. It is elitism at its worst. And so many love this. “Finally, we can make those idiots bow to our perfect spheres of knowledge.” All the while, they celebrate the poor natives and their quaint cultures as something to celebrate, like animals in a zoo. UK, split off and split up. Hell, I think Wales should secede. :thumb: They speak an entirely different language. Maybe even the midlands should break off. Lord knows the snobs in London hate those from Yorkshire.
Local rule. It’s groovy baby, YEAH! :joke: Now where did I put my mojo?
Melan on 15/6/2016 at 20:41
Quote Posted by demagogue
Gryz's argument would hit harder if it weren't for the fact "subsidiarity" is one of the most fundamental organizing principles of the EU, which says that EU directives only have perogative over issues that can't be addressed without joint action, and all other matters (including implementation) must devolve to the lowest possible level of government that's able to address it. That means if there's a regulation that can be completely addressed at a lower level of gov't, the EU doesn't even have the legal power to override it, and there's a court that will stop it if it tries. That's what subsidiarity means. And it's not like a side issues. That's always the major principle states are so paranoid to protect for every little thing they do.
It is probably not entirely relevant to this thread, since whether Brexit goes forward or not, Britain will not be rid of London, who is their bigger enemy in this matter,
but the EU has by and large abandoned subsidiarity and regionalism in practice. The lip service is still there, but ever since the mid-2000s, EU policies have gradually shifted to favour metropolitan areas as "the next big thing", and the results have been increasing centralisation, just like globalisation results in a concentration of political and economic power.
On the sub-national level, this concentration has gradually weakened the "Europe of the regions" concept, and regions, as well as the general idea of decentralisation have been caught between the "competing centralisms" of national governments and Brussels. The post-crisis tendency to renationalise, or recentralise previously devolved public functions, has a community counterpart. On the EU level, we can see an increasingly strong effort to develop supra-national governance, and community funds which were previously reserved to decrease territorial differences are being diverted to serve "community-wide" initiatives initiated by the EU leadership.
Regrettably (and I say this as an avowed regionalist), subsidiarity is no longer a functional principle in much of the EU, and the current leaders of Europe do not seem to believe in it anymore. As proven by the economic crisis, the Greek crisis, and now the migrant crisis, they seem to be increasingly paranoid about the idea of letting people decide things in a bottom-up way now that a large section of the public is not in synch with their goals anymore. And
that is giving the Brexit campaign a lot of valuable ammunition.
scumble on 15/6/2016 at 21:06
Like faetal I recognise the helpful employment legislation that came from the EU. I prefer decentralisation but leaving the EU isn't going to make the UK itself less centralised.
I recently read a book by John Gray called (
http://thenewpress.com/books/false-dawn) False Dawn. I think it puts this EU question in perspective given the global nature of some of the complaints appearing in this thread as if the EU is the main problem. At the moment the EU is likely better than the tendency that might be resumed with Conservatives having no external restraint. I guess that's what some others have said.
I think it's worth reading the book for an idea of what a mess the attempt to impose some arbitrary idea of global capitalism on the world has caused. The British Empire started it off and the US has been working to finish the job afterwards. It also points out that individualist attitudes don't apply in places like China or Japan and the culture has resisted.
I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining this however. I mainly find this EU thing ridiculous given the global context
dj_ivocha on 15/6/2016 at 21:40
Say the UK leaves and by this time next year most people decide they liked it better in the EU, after all. Are there or will there be provisions in place to facilitate an expedited UK reentry or will there be some period of 5 or 15 or 50 years, where it will be basically certain the UK will stay out?
Medlar on 15/6/2016 at 21:50
As far as I can make out, once out yer out, should yer want to get back in, the queue starts behind Turkey.
faetal on 15/6/2016 at 21:59
There's no queue - Turkey has barely fulfilled any of the conditions required to join the EU. I'm not sure what basis the UK could be let back in though, I wouldn't blame the EU for changing the locks.
Pyrian on 15/6/2016 at 23:04
I think, on net, I'm pro-centralization. Yeah, it's always got some issues. But so does decentralization. We've got all these immensely wealthy multinational corporations running around trying to corrupt everything, and generally speaking it's easier for them to corrupt the little guys - or at least some of them. As long as nobody's talking about forbidding foreign ownership of companies, which is what it would actually take to have real decentralization, then the multinationals are here to stay, and if the multinationals are here to stay, then we need institutions that can stand up to them.
bassoferrol on 16/6/2016 at 03:41
Tabloids 1 - EEC 0
faetal on 16/6/2016 at 08:14
True that basso.
Judith on 16/6/2016 at 09:54
Not sure how the EU membership is working for the UK, as it's a developed country, but for those less fortunate it did a lot. The EU government might be remote, but the decisions about funding go through local officials. There is a great variation in scope of these funding projects, from motorways to pocket parks, urban renewal and civic participation programs, or something as simple as computer classes for schools. Without proper funding, those small-scale projects wouldn't exist at all.
As for the enforced regulations, in country as backward as mine, some of the things you consider normal, like "48 h after" pill wouldn't be sold at all, with those conservative boneheads at the helm. I'm not saying EU is the best solution ever, but I like the idea of having an alternative of less idiot-officials per square meter to all the dumb no-can-do jerks I have to live with here.