faetal on 15/6/2016 at 13:03
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
That's a matter of language.
You're english. Government is an english word.
Etc...
No, I meant in the sense that the European
Union, does not fulfil the same role as the British
government. You see - they are two different words and carry out two different functions.
No need to waste your time with semantics.
heywood on 15/6/2016 at 13:24
As an outsider looking in, there seems to be a whole lot of scare mongering going on, much like the Scottish independence vote. Can anyone point me to an explanation of exactly what the UK is withdrawing from. Is it just the Lisbon treaty? If so, do any of the multitude of earlier EU or related treaties remain in effect, or would this wipe the slate clean?
As far as trade and regulations go, if the UK votes to leave I would expect the immediate impact to be nothing outside of some turmoil in financial markets, as businesses on both sides will continue operating as they currently do while a transition is being negotiated. Business lobbies on both sides will continue to push for free trade and regulatory harmonization and convergence regardless of whether the UK is in or out, so if common sense prevails I would expect the outcome to look a lot like the status quo and any deviation away from the EU will happen slowly.
faetal - It seems like you're making your judgment based solely on the fact that the current Tory government is to the right of where you would like it to be.
faetal on 15/6/2016 at 13:33
That's a good deal of it yes. But you're mostly just seeing that because I'm debating with Gryz, whose argument is coming from a left of centre place, so that's framed the discussion I'm having somewhat. I'm generally a fan of most of the legislation which the EU has put forward to protect UK workers. There is a lot I would change, but so long as the EU is putting the brakes on the disastrous UK governments (which includes the previous Labour government) we've been having, then I'm in favour. If the UK was a more compassionate place and the EU was dragging it towards a more neo-liberal system, then I'd be in favour of leaving. Surely the idea that it's relative isn't a bad thing?
It's a bit claymation to just base it on whether or not the EU is all good or all bad.
Also, the UK is going to lose out on ALL EU science funding, which will be a massive brain drain for the UK. There are far too many benefits overall to just focus on single issues and wave hands around about very vague ideas of sovereignty.
demagogue on 15/6/2016 at 14:08
Gryz's argument would hit harder if it weren't for the fact "subsidiarity" is one of the most fundamental organizing principles of the EU, which says that EU directives only have perogative over issues that can't be addressed without joint action, and all other matters (including implementation) must devolve to the lowest possible level of government that's able to address it. That means if there's a regulation that can be completely addressed at a lower level of gov't, the EU doesn't even have the legal power to override it, and there's a court that will stop it if it tries. That's what subsidiarity means. And it's not like a side issues. That's always the major principle states are so paranoid to protect for every little thing they do.
And then actually look at the directives. I mean it's things like there should be a common voltage & power-use standards so a hairdryer you buy in Italy doesn't literally catch on fire if you plug it into an outlet in Germany and things like that. The vast majority of stuff it does isn't political and it's hard to even figure out how you'd argue it's a bad thing except in some vague principle, "it's our God given right to have Italian hairdryers catch fire in our country if we damn well want them too!" temper tantrum.
Edit. Incidently, full-disclosure, my law school JD thesis was specifically on different culturally important values, sovereignty, and EU regulation, like London being under pressure to accept Mercedes taxis that aren't black and boxy, Germany/Bavaria pressured to accept beer with additives, France to accept cheese or wine that don't follow their arcane labeling rules (Champagne not actually made in Champagne), etc, etc. It's actually a problem I was taking seriously & don't just dismiss it.
Long story short, the EU has issues like any institution, but it also has a lot of built in mechanisms to deal with the problem, and actually in the end London got to keep their boxy taxis and France got to keep their arcane cheese and wine rules because culture still matters a lot (they were arguably losing cases that were wisely dodged or let pass), and those fights would probably have been more bitter without the EU. Inside, diplomacy avoids so many squabbles you never even see. And ok Bavaria didn't get to keep their beer purity laws, but (aside from "purity law" being a dodgy title for something coming out of Bavaria at the time) there was no evidence of any discernable effect on health or anything by the additives and their best argument was literally that Germans were at special risk because they drink so much more beer, which you know, E for Effort, but it's really not a great argument since health doesn't really work like that and culture by itself shouldn't be a free pass to cut yourself from the world either if you can't credibly back it up.
Neb on 15/6/2016 at 14:34
I'll be voting to stay next Thursday. I can't see leaving as anything other than a protracted pain in the arse that isn't likely to be better than what we already have.
SD on 15/6/2016 at 14:50
I have heard all the so-called arguments for leaving, every one, and not a single one of them has any merit whatsoever.
Nevertheless I fully expect the mouthbreathing spastics in this country to drive us out of the EU and our economy off the cliff next Thursday.
The shock to our economy will make the 2008 financial crisis seem like a bump in the road.
Until quite recently you could get 1.4 euros to the pound. Now it's 1.26. I'm expecting Sterling to hit parity with the euro by the end of the year. It will make holidays that much more expensive. I am fortunate to have an okay job and the free use of a couple of properties overseas yet even I am not sure I'll be able to afford a vacation next year.
We're at the point now though where facts are almost immaterial to the discussion, as the palsied retard majority vote entirely in line with their prejudice and ignorance, spouting all kinds of nonsense about "taking our country back" and "standing up to Brussels Eurocrats".
You know, if you want a way of making this country great again, I can think of one that involves strapping about 20 million Europhobes into rockets and firing them into the sun.
Anyway, the moron hordes might think they can steal my EU citizenship off me, but at least I will be able to get it back by exercising my right to an Irish passport. Thank you grandfather for being born in Cork.
Seeing the Brexit idiots suffering in the wake of our economy melting down will be a small crumb of comfort, and I intend to wring every ounce of enjoyment I can out of seeing those bastards reaping the whirlwind.
R Soul on 15/6/2016 at 14:56
I think we should leave. People in every country deserve a government that's fully accountable to them. It's true that people need to form groups and pool resources, but there's a limit beyond which that just doesn't work. The purpose of the EU is to have a common way of doing things for all its members, but its members all have their own needs and interests, so that unity is impossible without causing trouble. E.g. Greece needs a devalued currency, Germany doesn't. How's that going?
No government should be forced to enact a set of rules originating from a foreign power. If right for workers and consumers are good, an independent government can just copy them. If they don't, a rival party can promise them. There are more workers and consumers than there are managers and businesses, go governments already have an incentive to look after their interests.
Vivian on 15/6/2016 at 15:09
Yeah, they can, but do you seriously trust the fucking tories to replace all of the human rights, workers rights, environmental protection stuff etc with anything worth anything? They've already tried to bin the human rights act and frack everything not under one of their houses.
Also, it's not exactly us being forced to comply with a foreign power. We voted for a significant proportion of the people running stuff.
The info on this (or similar) unaffiliated fact-checking site is pretty edifying on the matter: (
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/)
Definitely read something like this before you vote: (
https://fullfact.org/europe/)
Krush on 15/6/2016 at 16:02
But if the Tories turn out to be wankers, you can probably replace them more easily than the EUcrats in Brussels.
SubJeff on 15/6/2016 at 19:00
Quote Posted by SD
I have heard all the so-called arguments for leaving, every one, and not a single one of them has any merit whatsoever.
Nevertheless I fully expect the mouthbreathing spastics in this country to drive us out of the EU and our economy off the cliff next Thursday.
What the frak is going on? I'm agreeing with Cameron and, worse, SD!
I've not spoken to a single Brextwit who has had anything more than "We'l bel great again." or "We shouldn't let Europe/Germany tell us what to do."
Also - the Geldof-Farage river riot was briiiiiiilliant. Made me proud to be British. Love it.