* Überdonkey * on 1/2/2004 at 23:39
...
So you're talking about the Jewish race?
Or is it Israelis? Looks like the former to me.
Well, assuming you're not hoping to convince anyone that you're "right" to scorn exiting members of the community, and you're only explaining (for some obscure reason) that it all makes sense to you and your neighbours, let's move on to this here:
"The atheists, especially the loud atheists, offend tradition by insulting the Jewish symbol. So, though there are plenty of them, and I'm almost one of them, they need to keep their mouths shut, smile, and act Jewish if they are to be treated properly."
The secular "Elementary Rules of Civility" buzzer says this is a dangerous and unacceptable attitude. You don't need to submerge yurself in wobbly new-age "open-mindedness" to treat your neighbours properly; if cultures are going to survive, if they're not to be thrown in prisons, oppressed and ridiculised by democratic countries, then they have to become civil with each other.
And I know Israel might not be heading down the road of democracy, but if you tell me that religious jews don't need to be civil because they live in a non-civil state, I'd answer that the rich countries Israel is sandwiched between are civil or semi-civil, and they'll back me up on this particular point.
I'm "racially" jewish, agnostic; I'm not loud about it, but looking at Israel, there'd be a few good reasons to speak out.
theBlackman on 2/2/2004 at 01:05
Quote:
Originally posted by GayleSaver His offense is his pretense to a heritage that is no longer his.
This is erroneous in its rational. That heritage will always belong to that person. One has a heritage. One cannot
not have a heritage. One can deny ones heritage, but that does not make it non existant.
Ones heritage cannot be taken from one.
Heritage, in the terms being bandied about here (VK) is the history of a person, the traditions of a people, a world. This can be denied, or ignored, but not changed or stripped away.
*Zaccheus* on 2/2/2004 at 12:34
GayleSaver, thanks for explaining that.
I still fundamentally disagree with the attitudes you describe (no surprise there), but at least I understand where you are coming from now.
:)
Uncia on 2/2/2004 at 12:43
Quote:
Originally posted by GayleSaver A Jewish atheist who preaches his atheism may be Jewish in Israeli law, but he is despised nonetheless; he preaches against tradition.
That's not tradition, that's bigotry.
Chimpy Chompy on 2/2/2004 at 12:51
Wait a second.... "Jewish Atheist"? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Or are religion and culture really that hopelessly entwined?
Moonsilk on 2/2/2004 at 23:17
Quote:
Originally posted by jay pettitt Moonsilk,
yeah - they've got all those kiddie bibles with the nice cute pictures of biblical acts of genocide. So thats all alright then.
Well, mine was not filled with biblical acts of genocide, however, it is also about thirty years old now. It told nice stories about how life began and the other stories from the old testament as well as the new one, but it really capitalized on the "love of God" rather than the "wrath of God" - perhaps the ones they sell nowadays aren't as tailored for children as they used to be. Really, it's too bad, giving your children nightmares by reading to them from a "horror story" version of a Children's Bible makes me sad. :(
Huggies and Kissies.
:angel:
jay pettitt on 2/2/2004 at 23:32
lol, thanks for staying 'on-topic' moonsilk - you're an angel. :-)
Dario on 3/2/2004 at 06:07
Never discuss religion with a crowd that's 95% atheist.
Rather, discuss something agreeable like Thief with a crowd that's 95% Thief.
:thumb:
theBlackman on 3/2/2004 at 07:14
Dario Anti-formal religion is not atheist. The atheists posting here are closer to 10 or 15% by guesstimate. :D
Moonsilk on 3/2/2004 at 08:32
Quote:
Originally posted by Dario Never discuss religion with a crowd that's 95% atheist.
I'm actually "agnostic" (meaning: I don't believe there is a God, neccesarily, but I don't disbelieve either - a "seeing is believing" type of outlook), but I was raised in a Lutheran environment, since my family is very close; meaning older generations often live with the younger generations; i.e. the children take care of the parents when the parents can no longer effectively manage on their own (eventually, I will take care of my parents, likely adding an "apartment" onto my home for them to live in while I help them with the more difficult aspects of their lives) - and my Grandparents were devout Lutherans. So, all information here is based on knowledge gained from my Grandparent's influence. But, I digress...
With this thread, I think it could have been easy to avoid getting into a huge religious debate by simply trying to help Jay with his problem rather than discussing your own problems, or views on religion as a whole. Of course, that completely goes against this response (the paragraph above), but since I am responding to a different topic - hence the quote - I am giving myself some leeway...
Back on-topic now, however:
Jay, if you really want to help your brother's children by finding better alternatives of biblical readings, more optomistic viewpoints - I would suggest browsing in used bookstores for (children's) religious books printed before the 1980's. I believe that's when the whole "children should not be children, but be told all the horrors of the world" thing really came into being - but don't quote me on it. ;)
Hope that helps some.
Huggies and Kissies.
:angel:
P.S. Jay, I'm more than happy to stay on-topic, religious debates are not my cup o' tea. :) - M.
