GayleSaver on 1/2/2004 at 17:09
Want to impose the cross on the Star of David?
Yes, from our viewpoint any departure of Judaism is hasty. But that's not what I'm explaining. I'm explaining that it's rude to keep the club card after departure.
How do I define my Jewishness? Oh, Zaccheus. The things you listed are barely fitting for a Britney Spears fan club. I am somewhat Jewish because I have been born to a Jew and a half-Jew; because I have lived in Israel; because I take certain sides. I am a good deal not-Jewish, because I have not spilled blood for the Jews. I have no right to complain. But those who do, do.
EDIT: You will say that this only qualifies a convertee. I will disagree. The symbol is inextricably tied to the identity. To betray the obligations of the symbol - the Jewish religion - is to forfeit any right to the identity - the Jewish nationality. Plus there's a bitter taste in the mouths of Jews when it comes to other religions, and you will find it difficult to prove that taste entirely neurotic.
EDIT for further qualification: That makes me a hypocrite, of course. And I am. Both the pronounced Jewish atheists ("There is no God") and the mad Orthodox Jews ("There is no obligation but to God") are breaking the modern Jewish agreement - to uphold what is Jewish through any trial of the world.
theBlackman on 1/2/2004 at 17:43
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenesis tBm - this is a view I've heard before, but one which, I believe, does not stand up to scrutiny.So, if one of these two religions is leading to God, or heaven, or however you want to put it, then the other cannot possibly be doing so.
You misread my post, nearly in its entirety. I mentioned NO SPECIFIC religion, nor did I mention Christian vs Judaism, vs Islam.
You conveiniently forgot, Shintoism, Animism, Taoism, Confusiaism, Bhuddism, and others.
What I said was:
In MY opinion, every religion has some validity. They all are aimmed at reaching the same goal. They just have chosen different routes to get there.Who, or which, is right is not an issue, except to a practitioner, or a searcher for the "TRUE PATH", which I am not.
*Zaccheus* on 1/2/2004 at 17:59
What would you say this common goal is?
Jenesis on 1/2/2004 at 18:02
tBm - I wasn't trying to ignore these other religions, I was using Christianity and Islam to illustrate my point - that I don't believe all religions can be valid, as at least two are mutually exclusive.
Having read your second post, I find myself unsure as to what you are trying to say. Are you saying that there might be one true religion, but that as all religions are striving towards a roughly similar goal, they all have some merit? Or are you saying that it doesn't matter which religion you follow, you will get to the same place in the end?
*Zaccheus* on 1/2/2004 at 18:08
Quote:
Originally posted by GayleSaver Both the pronounced Jewish atheists ("There is no God") and the mad Orthodox Jews ("There is no obligation but to God") are breaking the modern Jewish agreement - to uphold what is Jewish through any trial of the world.
I'm still not clear how you define 'what is Jewish'. I think that is the central disagreement between us. If being a jewish atheist is valid, why would being a messianic jew be invalid? Is it specifically the fact that they have become christians, and being is christian is seen as worse than being an atheist?
Let's say a group of jewish believers come to the conclusion that someone other than Jesus is the messiah. Would they also be traitors to the faith? What if virtually all Rabbis came to that conclusion?
Wyclef on 1/2/2004 at 18:13
>most famously, perhaps, the Knights Templar, who are rumoured to have ritually defiled the symbl of the cross.<
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GayleSaver on 1/2/2004 at 18:25
Let me eloquate. ;)
It is not any more invalid to be a Jewish atheist than it is to be a Messianic Jew or an Orthodox Jew.
The levels of affront are different.
The atheists, especially the loud atheists, offend tradition by insulting the Jewish symbol. So, though there are plenty of them, and I'm almost one of them, they need to keep their mouths shut, smile, and act Jewish if they are to be treated properly.
The Orthodox Jews don't serve in the Israeli army. I think they practice the kind of idolatry they preach against.
The Messianics are open traitors. You can't worship Jesus without it being noticed. Why should the rest of the Jews put up with their attempt to reconcile two opposed traditions, especially when not all Christians do?
theBlackman on 1/2/2004 at 18:35
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenesis Even most non-Christians who have read the Bible would agree that the crucifixion is central to the Christian faith. Indeed, if they don't believe in the crucifixion, why would these people want to call themselves Christians?
The DEATH of Christ and his RETURN therefrom is the central theme of the Christian faith. The cross is a symbol of the resurrection ONLY because it was the method used to kill Christ.
It could well have been a beheading block, a stake in the ground with Christ executed by volleys of arrows.
The Crucifixion itself is NOT CENTRAL. Part of yes but only in its symbolizing the death.
The Resurrection and the "life everlasting" in the grace of GOD is the CENTER of Christianity.
*Zaccheus* on 1/2/2004 at 18:55
It is the suffering on the cross (which includes the resulting death) which constituted the punishment for our wrong doings.
While Jesus was hanging on the cross, he cried "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.", quoting Psalm 22. This separation from his father is widely believed to have been caused by the fact that he was at that point bearing the consequences of (and punishment for) our sins.
Psalm 22 : 14 - 18; sounds very much like a description of what someone suffering crucifixion might experience.
So the fact that he was crucified is central to our belief that he was punished instead of us, and hence we can get off 'scott free', so to speak.
<hr>
GayleSaver
You said in an earlyer post:
"To betray the obligations of the symbol - the Jewish religion - is to forfeit any right to the identity - the Jewish nationality"
What obligations have they betrayed that other jews have not betrayed ?
Again, this is a genuine question.
I can of course accept that the messianics are not the most popular members of the jewish community.
All I am saying is that they are members of the jewish community.
GayleSaver on 1/2/2004 at 19:17
I knew you were going to pick up on that. Writing it was my mistake. I should have written something different. ;)
Let's backtrack a little. What do you mean by "they are members of the Jewish community"? Is this Jewish community the actual community, or your perception of the same? And, if it is actual, then what does their continued membership in the Jewish community imply?
They can adopt the Christian flag and send us money like the outsiders they've become. We will appreciate it. But I don't see how they can claim that which is not theirs to define.
