John D. on 31/1/2004 at 03:53
Quote:
Religion and culture are intertwined in the optimal Jew.
Whether you are a Jew or Christian, keep in mind that there is a difference between divine relevation (for example the Torah or Bible) and cultural practices and traditions invented by humans which can interfere with faith. Accepting Christ doesnt obliterate a Jew's unique identity in the eyes of God, he still has all of the promises God gave to Abraham through Issac (which were given in reponse to Abraham's faith before the Law was given to Moses) plus salvation through Christ. The only thing that the New Testament says must be given up is reliance on following Mosaic Law in order to gain salvation. In Paul's letters he goes in depth on why God gave the Law to Moses, it was to demonstrate humanity's total inabilty to follow God though external codes of conduct, even those who had been specially chosen and seperated to do so. That's why Jesus spoke of 'if your hand/eye causes you to sin get rid of it'-obviously if you were to do this literally you would soon dismember yourself in order to please Him through human effort. Christians believe only Jesus fufilled the Law in thought and deed and it died with Him. Christians are given the Holy Spirit which works to change them from
within.
Quote:
we can't ignore two thousand years of history
Things went wrong when the medieval Church claimed that all of God's promises to the Jews were now forfeit and now held by the Church alone-which shows what horrible scholars they were. As I've stated before-when God spoke to Abraham he swore
by himself and one of those promises is the fact that he would bless those who blessed his descendents and curse those who harmed them. History has shown that this promise has not been forgotten. Jews suffer persecution, survive and go on while peoples, empires and nations that mistreat them crumble.:thumb:
Muzman on 31/1/2004 at 03:56
Quote:
Originally posted by Stitch666 Gaylesaver: Jew! Jew! Jew!
Zaccheus: Jesus! :) Jesus! :) Jesus! :)
The rest of us: Christ! Christ! Christ!
Me: Mushroom Mushroom!
(completely out of the blue that one huh)
ignatios on 31/1/2004 at 05:43
i'm drunk
ALso, this discussion is fruitless.
GayleSaver on 31/1/2004 at 05:48
Yes, and, to top it off, my discussion is dangerous.
Neither the Jews nor any other closed culture will understand Christian proselytism, however eloquently it is defended. Nor ought we to; nor ought to the Parsees. To us, it is a very deep insult.
Convict on 31/1/2004 at 05:57
GayleSaver I thought the whole thing about being Jewish is the claim to being God's special people. But then you say it's a cultural thing and you don't have to be religious to be in the special group. Are you GayleSaver waiting for a messiah or not?:confused:
GayleSaver on 31/1/2004 at 05:59
The Jew who hangs on his supposed privileged status is no less fanatical than the Christian who hangs on his.
ignatios on 31/1/2004 at 06:03
This conversation no longer makes sense.
Goodnight.
Convict on 31/1/2004 at 06:04
So VK if it's just a cultural thing, should a German who becomes English be dispised by other Germans?:confused:
GayleSaver on 31/1/2004 at 06:06
Revlied? Perhaps not. Despised, in the original sense of the word? Indeed. A traitor is a traitor.
Original sense: "to regard with contempt or scorn", AHD
*Zaccheus* on 31/1/2004 at 11:48
Quote:
Originally posted by GayleSaver I understand. But we can't ignore two thousand years of history.
No, you can't. The separation of our two cultures and the hatred that at times arose between us is a tragedy.
But for that very reason I disagree that a jew who comes to the conclusion that Jesus is Israel's messiah must renounce his jewish identity and culture. Can you imagine the outcry if christians were making such demands?
Quote:
Originally posted by GayleSaver What would you say about Muslim Jews?
Islam does not accept the Old Testament in it's current form. Christians do.
However, there are plenty of Palestinian Christians, for instance, and I would say that Arab christians should indeed maintain their Arab culture as much as possible.
EDIT:
I should also say that I can see no reason why a muslim should not become a jewish believer, if he/she is convinced that "the tora and the prophets" are indeed God's word.
