Bible, a source of ethical values? (Warning, religious thoughts!) - by Gorgonseye
Gorgonseye on 24/1/2008 at 21:49
I'm not so much concerned that religions are evil or ruining us, but more that we might just be trying to compensate a lack or decline in ethics and, "Do it because it's the right thing," and making up for it with "You'll go to hell," and, "That's what our book tells us to do."
I mean, Jesus was a pretty cool guy, who preached about being kind to each other, the idea is also that we will be rewarded for our good deeds, but do we even need to be rewarded, can't being a good person just be a reward in itself?
Edit: Well, it probably isn't that big enough of a reward, but damn, don't teach someone to be nice because something bad will happen, but instead, teach them , but BECAUSE it's the good thing to do.
Raven, one more shout out to you here:
Look, I'm just not here to pound on religion. I'm here more out of concern that some people are just getting tired of being parents, or just that American ethics, or maybe even world ethics could just be going down the drain, and that it's really all about that material wealth.
I'm not afraid to admit that sometimes I just sit there and think, "Is the world ending?" and just cry in fear, and that it takes me a couple hours to pull myself together, and in all this, I just try to pin down what are the causes for all these problems, and why these problems haven't been solved. I'm 15, and sometimes I feel like my world is coming to a close already. It's scary, and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who's scared about this in my school, and that I was cursed with the habit of over-thinking everything.
I don't expect anyone to relate, but I do want to know I'm not the only one trying to understand what these problems are, and when someone goes and thinks I'm trying to insult them, I have to say it only scares me more, and strengthens my fears. :(
Honestly? I'd rather be happy then right, and if someone could just tell me and mean it, "Nope, there is not a problem in the world, and you're just thinking too much, and everything is going to be fine." That would just be great.
K thx bye.
heretic on 24/1/2008 at 22:11
Quote Posted by Gorgonseye
Honestly? I'd rather be happy then right, and if someone could just tell me and mean it, "Nope, there is not a problem in the world, and you're just thinking too much, and everything is going to be fine." That would just be
great.K thx bye.
There ARE problems in the world, but everything CAN be fine..once you realize it's not up to you to solve them, nor are you the only one that can, or that
cares to for that matter.
You're 15, lighten up.
Sow some wild oats, have fun. Maybe set a long-term life goal to accomplish if you really have to dwell on something.
You might read some Aristotle or Ayn Rand to help flesh out some of these questions and issues if you can't firmly place them on the back-burner for awhile. There is a large school of thought that these underlying issues are not truly religious in nature.
failure2comply on 24/1/2008 at 22:11
Quote:
I don't expect anyone to relate, but I do want to know I'm not the only one trying to understand what these problems are, and when someone goes and thinks I'm trying to insult them, I have to say it only scares me more, and strengthens my fears.
You're not alone.
BrokenArts on 24/1/2008 at 22:27
Gorgon, I understand where you are coming from. No one can force you to take and understand the meanings behind the bible. Personally the holier than thou attitudes, and people shoving THEIR beliefs down my throat are a big turn off to me. You have to find your own truth, in reality, all this religious doctrine won't add up to much within yourself, if you just don't care. You can listen, no one can make you believe. Atheist or devout Christian, you have to find out what it means to you. Your core values, that takes time.
Yes, I do believe in do unto others, some of which is so basic, sure, we can be all heathens, how about the anarchist society, been there done that, naa, lets not go there anymore.
Okay, you could say, Jesus set some basic rules for man, and how we should treat one another, doesn't always work, but, we try, fail, and try again.
Our ethics, the parents of today, a lot of them really do suck. I think too, there are cycles, I think parents will find their way back to what it means to be parents again. There are good ones, of course, seems more emphasis is placed on the crap sometimes. In the 50's, more strict, 60's peace love and war, which carried over into the 70's. The 80's, it's all about me, which spilled over into the 90's. Today, I can't say for sure. I do know other parents feel the same way. Sure each decade had its share of crap. Money isn't everything, for some its the only thing, too bad for them.
You have to have faith, hah, yeah, I know. I have to have some belief that this world is not totally screwed. Regardless of what I think, man keeps going. Sometimes stories immerge that can restore my faith in humanity, just a little. Its hip to be green now, lets do something about the environment before there isn't anything left for the future generations to come. Things on that horizon are changing, bout damn time too.
At some point, you have to have faith within yourself, that you will be ok. If you didn't, you'd drive yourself crazy. You have to keep going, appreciate your family, friends, try to do something good once in a while, to help keep your sanity, talk to people, a lot of people share similar views. Restore your hope and faith within yourself. In the end, thats all that matters. What can you do to make it a better world for you, and the ones you love. Only you can answer that, and you have time. Just do the best you can, and don't think so much. You have plenty of time for that.
Take my BS for what its worth, I've seen enough, and been through enough in my life. World isn't pretty sometimes, I won't let that stop me from living my life.
37637598 on 24/1/2008 at 22:58
this is deep man...
BrokenArts on 24/1/2008 at 23:04
Thats nice.
jimjack on 25/1/2008 at 04:35
Quote Posted by Gorgonseye
I'm
not afraid to admit that sometimes I just sit there and think, "Is the world ending?" and just cry in fear, and that it takes me a couple hours to pull myself together, and in all this, I just try to pin down what are the causes for all these problems, and why these problems haven't been solved. I'm 15, and sometimes I feel like my world is coming to a close already. It's scary, and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who's scared about this in my school, and that I was cursed with the habit of over-thinking everything.
I don't expect anyone to relate, but I do want to know I'm not the only one trying to understand what these problems are, and when someone goes and thinks I'm trying to insult them, I have to say it only scares me more, and strengthens my fears. :(
Descartes. Doubt everything. Read that shit in grade nine and BOOM!
Actually some good books to read:
The Catcher in the Rye, Farenhieght 451 by Ray Bradbury, and The true confessions of Charlotte erm..Dodd? Doyle? they all might maybe encompass all that you are feeling about the world. That it is socially driven and that it tends to encourage you in ways you just shouldn't accept. You should question the path you're on, but simaultaneously just stop worrying so goddam much and censoring the fuck out of the world. Likesay take responsiblity for yourself, do what you feel is right, just don't forget who your are and don't lose the simpler things in life. Trust me I've been exactly where you are now, and I still am there. Only as things progress am I starting to loosen the fuck up now and actually stopping the over thinking and anxieties..my solution? well for me thats a given for you, well just try and stick out this existentual angst shit for a couple more years, you'll find your happy space trust me. clothing optional. You're going through a hell of alot more than worrying about the world. Its an ego thing that is overspilling and making everything grey.
I don't think this is going to make a shit ball of sense really but well...
hang in there GE it does get better. When things get better on the inside, it kind of makes the outside more tolerable.
now thats depth
Rogue Keeper on 25/1/2008 at 11:17
Quote Posted by the one true thief
I believe it's called Human ignorance. :p
Certainly. I see ignorance everywhere. Mostly I see it as a consequence of hunt for fleeting materialistic values, unhealthy lifestyle and excesses and frustration that come out of it.
Quote Posted by 37637598
This is true, although you cannot learn wisdom through a book entirely. You can only get an idea of how someone else is wise, you yourself must practice wisdom in order to understand it, and become wise. Not too many people who base their lives off the bible practice wisdom. I'd say it's not very wise to devote yourself to jesus christ as if he were a god, when god specifically says to honor only him (god, not jesus) over any other gods.
But of course, that's why I suggested it's not healthy to rely on only one true interpretation from one authority which usurps the right to have recipe on truth. Not too many people who base their lives on any other book practice wisdom. A wise theologician who has studied the Bible would tell you that God and Christ and Holy Spirit are essentially one being, so if you believe in Christ, you also believe in God - Christ is essentially and extension of God's spirit in material world. But maybe even Christ wasn't aware of that while he was alive, that's why he prayed to his father - his spiritual unification (reunification?) with God came after his death.
The other way (believing in God without Christ) it's more complicated, as basically two other religions rose from the Old Testament - Judaism and Islam. They basically share the same God, but as they don't accept New Testament, Christ is not important for them. But you don't have to be a theologician to know that, just one Bible reading would reveal you this. Of course the First Commandment you were talking about comes from Old Testament - pre-Christ era. So I don't think anyone would hurt God's feelings if he praised Christ and not even once mentioned God in his prayers. God will certainly understand. =)
Quote:
Way back when, people were stupid. If you saw someone nailed to a cross, not moving, and you were alive in the time of christ, would you A) check for a pulse? B) Assume he's dead and take him down off the cross for his family to bury. Even now, just recently, a man was thought to be dead, but when they were doing his funeral, he started banging on the inside of his coffin, and asked for a glass of water when he was discovered alive!
People are stupid even now and will be, stupidity is infinite. Einstein would confirm you that. You wouldn't have much chance to check's victims pulse if the legal authority responsible for the murder (Roman legion in this case) would obstruct your access to the victim. In fact, even if you had access to the victim, would you care in the first place? Or maybe you would be ignorant. Maybe you would be even one of those who wanted Christ to be dead. Who knows. Would you have guts to save somebody, whose innocence you are absolutely sure of, from legal execution even if that meant that you'll have to seriously break the law and go against majority of public opinion? We shall see. To judge the morality of certain old era is a very difficult thing, one can't see all prerequisites and all consequences. If I lived in Judea around the year 33 and withessed the crucification of a person who is perceived by majority as an useless, heretic prophet, I can't tell for sure what would I do and what would I believe in as there are too many uncertain circumstances to consider.
Quote:
To think that so many people followed this one man and still do to this day, all because he says he was tortured for our sins, but I see it as nothing more than a publicity stunt. I'm sure if Jesus was alive today, he'd be on jackass... but don't take my word for it.
If you imagine that one poor, badly educated craftsman had so much power to stay in memory of human society for next 1000 years - it's stunning. He managed to do it far better more than a committe of the best political and commercial Public Relations jerks the world has to offer today. What he was exceptional in his era, which was overfilled with thousands of indistinguishable fake prophets, was that he said he came to fulfill old prohecy, not create more prophecies.
When somebody would take your life with no witnesses, erase your from electronic records, destroy your works, burn all material records about you, then you would essentially vanish from existence. Those few who would remember would tell their children about you, but every passing generation would twist your life story a bit more. And the grandchildren would think you're just a myth, a tale for little children. In the end most of them would stop believe you even existed.
To think that if someone stops believing in God makes him immune from believing any bullshit is unwise as well. "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing — they believe in anything." - G.K. Chesterton
Quote:
My typical conversation with online preachers...
I'm not your typical online preacher - whatever a „typical online preacher“ is supposed to be. But my debates with hard atheists too often reach the point when my opponents say „Well I don't think about such things much... but... but I don't believe anyway.“ or something in that sense. I'm just too complicated - for better or worse.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
What I find amazing is that people attribute things to a book, and not to the people who used it. It is a tool, nothing more, but it's foundation is built on the innate human drive to question existence and those who know how have twisted human nature by it.
Why sure, a spiritual tool that shaped the history of Western civilization. Any tool has good use or bad use. I can use a hammer to build a house or I can kill somebody with it. I can use a match to ignite a useful fire or a killing fire.
Bible didn't invent or create flaws or dark sides in human nature. An atheist can have the same flaws in nature like a theist, they just have different concepts of their compensation and self-control.
The story of creation of Bible would be far more complicated than the story of creation any philosophical work you can buy today in your local bookstore. If it's a tool, it's one hell of an impressive tool - an army of renown philosophers like Socrates, Aristotle, Epicurus, Hegel, Aquinas, Descartes, de Tocqueville, Kant, Marx, Nietzche, and many more didn't manage to create such massively influential works like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John managed to. Quite an impressive job for such undereducated obscure losers, hehehe.
I perceive the prevailently atheist conspiracy theory behind the Bible more like a fashionable Zeitgeist of our era. I find it interesting when somebody rejects the Bible as irrational while at the other hand he offers just unprovable conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theory is often a belief placeholder for mind, which is not sure what to believe in or, as Chesterton puts it, is willing to believe anything.
Quote Posted by ataricom
The only way I think Christianity shaped Western society is through the administration of the Catholic church during the middle ages. It was, for the most part, the backbone of western Europe for close to 1000 years, from the fall of the western Roman Empire through the Renaissance. Sure, it provided a faith for people to follow, but it became so badly contorted (people's beliefs in ghosts, witches, etc. became a staple to Christianity) that the only constant was the organization of the Church.
That being said, modern Catholicism has been "modern" for 500 years.
It would be a simplification to think that every Christian who walked this planet became Christian because the Church brainwashed him. But would there be Catholic Church without the Bible? Not. Catholic Church is a consequence of the Bible in the first place. That said, as a Lutheran I don§t care about Catholic Church too much.
You have pretty much described in detail what I had in mind - that the Bible shaped the civilization in
various ways. With it I mean in good ways as well. I find interesting the speculative part about Satan tempting Christ : Satan prophesied Christ that after his death, people will be killing each other in His name - and so it happened during next centuries. But Christ answered him that God has left a free choice for people to do either good or evil so that they would do goodness voluntarily and would make moral choices for themselves.
If people didn't invent ghosts and witches, they would invent different fairies and demons - humans have fantasy. Exceptional people tend to do questionable things whether they are spiritual or secular - and little people like to criticize and judge them, especially for the subjective feeling that they are „better people“.
But okay, let's try to abandon God then because he's dead.... and start to believe in atheist nietzchean ideal of a Superman. I'll be watching from behind the corner - just in case something goes wrong with it. The world has already seen what bestiality are some god-denying ideologies capable of. I seriously doubt that a completely atheist human world resigned on spirituality would be morally better, more fair and just, more peaceful than this one. You can kill God in your personal microverse by stopping believing in him, but you can't tear apart your internal demons so easily. Kill a God, another sits on his throne.
Posthumanist Spiritual TechnoCommunist, signing off.
