Bible, a source of ethical values? (Warning, religious thoughts!) - by Gorgonseye
jtr7 on 27/1/2008 at 00:12
Ripped apart?:o I hope you're being facetious.:p
Ask away! Just don't ask questions and ignore the answers. Ask multiple sources and accept the answers whether they make you uncomfortable or not. Asking questions is using your God-given brain. It would almost be the ultimate insult to NOT use what you've been given. The Word tells you to study The Word. The guy behind the pulpit may want you to idolize him and give him money instead, but studying The Word tells you what will happen to him if he doesn't repent. Know what you are talking about, lest ye be "ripped apart" by two momma bears, and be denied the gold-foil star licked and stuck to your forehead.
You know I'm not just speaking to you alone, jimjack, right?:sly: I always have to remind myself that my knee-jerk emotional response is not correct until I research, and look at the opposing arguments, and know I cannot be 100% correct. If I think that, I'm clearly arrogant.
A wise man accepts rebuke. If I'm wrong to believe comprehension and context are important to understanding, then I frikkin' give up.
Cheers!:D
fett on 27/1/2008 at 00:24
You're not asking big questions, you're asking stupid questions that can be answered with one of those stupid 'The Bible for Dummies' books. Yes it's "all right there" and no one will deny it, but you're grabbing single sentences out of a thousand page text and deciding what it means with no context. If this is how you read everything else, it explains your general confusion about life.
I don't have the energy for this.
jimjack on 27/1/2008 at 00:38
Aright I didn't exactly ask questions, just my take. And my ignorance as well.
Anyway this is Gorgon's thread. I think he should come back now..
Gingerbread Man on 27/1/2008 at 01:32
Quote Posted by fett
Have you ever asked yourself WHO is told to do those things, and WHY they're told to do it? ... The word we're looking for here is 'context'. Which I'm sure any attorney will tell you is of ultimate importance when interpreting LAW.
That's what I was trying to say in my adorably obtuse way.
mopgoblin on 27/1/2008 at 01:45
Quote Posted by fett
I won't theorize on the notion of sin, but IIRC the jury is still out on the 'gay' gene. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but we still don't know if it's genetic.
There's pretty strong evidence that male homosexuality is correlated with having greater numbers of older brothers. There's also some evidence that this is due to the mother developing an immune response to certain androgens while pregnant with those older brothers. It doesn't matter that this factor isn't genetic, because it's clearly not an individual choice in those cases. Studies have indicated the "fraternal birth order effect" is responsible for 15-29% of cases of male homosexuality.
jtr7 on 27/1/2008 at 02:46
Sure!
However, if a person is born with a trait that the majority of the population finds odd enough, strange enough, or disturbing enough--no matter if that perception is wrong or right--it's also natural, regardless of right or wrong, to react to that person negatively. It takes social and cultural change to teach people not to give in to THOSE impulses.
Most people have desires, urges, impulses, tendencies, perceptions, sensory reactions to stimuli, that most believe and have agreed it's best not to act on or give in to, under most circumstances, because the consequences are mostly negative and long-lasting and have an impact on others. Skeletons in our closets. Our dark side. Again, biblically-speaking, usually the line is crossed with the act of sex, and touching of another's genitals. Then it gets precautionary with rules about nakedness and lust, because, well--these are among the first steps that lead to "I don't know, it just happened [to me. I was no longer in control and was incapable of making a safer choice. Ah hell, I really wanted it so bad!]." I'm looking, just to be sure, but I haven't yet seen a passage that says merely being homosexual in nature brings condemnation.
I forgot to say, the Bible, the New Testament, harps on the point that it is impossible for any person to get into Heaven by their own power. It is impossible to DO anything or REFRAIN from doing that will get a person into Heaven. Accepting and believing in the Christ has been the only way since the crucifixion. It also says we will be held accountable for our ACTIONS. Before the Christ came, it was probably much harder to earn the privilege of having our list of sinful ACTIONS erased. We all have our crosses to bear. The thorn in our flesh. That thing or those things that remind us of the curse of sin, and the deadly effects of the pollutant called sin, upon every sub-atomic particle of our being. That crap that makes us willfully hurt each other, or dp things we know will have a detrimental consequence affecting others even before the moment of pleasure has past.
Gray on 27/1/2008 at 03:53
Quote Posted by jimjack
Has anyone here actually read the bible cover to cover?
I did once, but it was almost 20 years ago and I was so bored with it I may have skipped parts. It was part of the required reading for my religion class in school.
What I remember most from it was that the old testament god was a really grumpy entity, and not worth obeying. I mean, just how petty, violent and vendictive can an omnipresent entity be before you have some serious doubts if this thing is worthy of being worshipped? Sheesh. Jesus, OTOH, seemed like a nice fellow, though some of his followers may not. A few of the commandments made sense. But do go ahead and explain the holy trinity, in words that make sense and are readily understandable.
Now, however, as a determined atheist, I got the new translation a few years ago ("Bible 2000") and fully intend to read it again, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. In a broader perspective, I also plan to get and read the torah, koran, bhagvadgita and whatever stuff I can get my hands on. I'm thinking it'll help me understand people, and make better arguments for my stance.
jtr7 on 27/1/2008 at 04:03
Quote:
Has anyone here actually read the bible cover to cover?
I don't know anyone who truly has. Moving one's eyeballs back and forth while your brain is thinking about anything other than the words and what they mean doesn't count. That's one reason why we're encouraged to study it. Also, a person may read the same passage over and over, know it by heart, and never understand it, but have a version of misunderstanding they really like, and one day--BAM!--they see what it really says. And it's so simple and many-layered and it opens up understanding of other passages. Kinda like watching a favorite movie, and seeing or hearing something you never noticed before in a hundred viewings, and it's cool, and you want to share--even though no one else like the movie.
Peanuckle on 27/1/2008 at 07:01
All this religious debate goes on forever when were talking about generalities. How about we introduce some specific debate?
For example, it has been previously stated in this thread that the Bible holds nothing against masturbation. However, I recall reading in Levit. (IIRC) that "If a man shall cast off seed, he shall wash himself completely in water, and be unclean until the even." Or something to that effect. Being dirty until night doesn't seem too terrible, but it sounds like an admonishment to me.
jtr7 on 27/1/2008 at 08:20
Yes, it means you are physically grubby for a time.
No, it's not saying squat about masturbation being wrong.
The other, ridiculous, word for it is Onanism. Too many misguided illiterates in the past said Onan made God mad for masturbating when it doesn't say that at all. Onan was commanded to take his dead brother's widow as his own wife and have kids by her. He kept pulling out and casting his seed to the ground. God was angry with Onan for not getting his wife pregnant, you know, neither being fruitful nor multiplying.
Masturbation itself is not forbidden. Lusting is. A lot of people can't get off from masturbating without fantasizing, so it gets complicated.
What generalities are you generalising about?:p
