Thirith on 9/2/2009 at 16:49
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
What are you, stupid? Gaeta intentionally incited a mutiny that directly resulted in a lot of innocent people getting murdered.
So, if Gaeta is as unequivocally guilty and has forfeited his life without reservations, what about:
* The Cylons: killed millions in their genocidal attack on the colonies, and thousands more on New Caprica;
* Admiral Adama: may just be responsible for triggering the genocide when he ordered Bulldog to break the armistice with his secret recon mission (sure, the Cylons may have attacked anyway - but the point is
we don't know);
* Helo: killed the infected Cylon prisoners to avoid humanity committing genocide on the Cylon race - so arguably all deaths following this resulting from Cylon aggression are his responsibility;
* Adama (again) and Roslin: entered a truce with the rebel Cylons - thereby forgiving the millions of deaths these Cylons are implicated in (not necessarily in agreement with a majority of humans), arguably committing treason themselves, breaking their oaths and getting away with it by ignoring democratic principles when it suits them - never mind that there is good reason to distrust the new allies, so the mutiny (if not the way it was executed by some) is definitely not without justification.
Again, what makes Gaeta so much more cuplable than any of the above, and what makes Adama more justified in having him executed than it would have been the other way around? How is it
unambivalently just if they can sit in judgment on him and sentence him to death? If his guilt is that clear-cut and if he obviously deserves to die, then the same is true for many if not all of the above. If you ignore the moral grey areas we've got here, you're ignoring a large part of what the series is.
fett on 9/2/2009 at 17:22
What Thrith said. IMO it's very uncool that Adama was portrayed as the hero in this arc when Gaeta was simply calling him out on his treason and bad judgment. Just because an alliance with the Cylons is practical, doesn't make him any less of a traitor than Gaeta was. Also hated to see Richard Hatch go out that way. They should have at least had him killed by Apollo - irony ftw.
Fringe on 9/2/2009 at 17:46
Did many of you completely miss the murder and the threatened rape? What about when Zarek massacred the elected Quorum to retain power, and all Gaeta did when he found out was look disconcerted for a moment before agreeing to go along with it? Or the mass murder on Galactica? Gaeta didn't fire any shots himself, but he orchestrated a mutiny that must have killed a quarter of Galactica's crew. Men and women in uniform that he'd served with for years, and who hadn't done anything wrong themselves.
There's just no equivalency. I'm sorry to go all ZylonBane on you--but if you don't see that, you're a moral retard.
The rebel Cylons, on the other hand, helped the Galactica crew destroy the Cylon resurrection hub, and in doing so shatter the centerpiece of Cylon culture. You'd think the Cylon-hating humans would at least recognize the value of that.
Thirith on 9/2/2009 at 17:51
@Fringe: Yes, Gaeta is also responsible for the murder (60, according to the tally at the beginning) and perhaps for the threatened rape. But that still doesn't strip it of moral ambivalence. How many civilians died at Hiroshima? Did Truman deserve to die for all those *innocent* victims? Or what about rapes and murder by Allied soldiers during WW2? That sort of thing happened - not every doughboy was a clean-chinned hero. Do all these crimes translate 1-to-1 up the chain to the generals and heads of state? And Gaeta definitely did more than look disconcerted. Yes, he didn't act against Zarek, and yes, that makes him culpable - but as I've said before and as I'll say again, Battlestar Galactica never has dealt in moral absolutes. Gaeta's actions in these episodes are those of a man who wants to do the right thing, admittedly fuelled by lots of anger and frustration, and ends up fucking up big-time. None of this turns him into Joseph Stalin. And when the episodes weren't hero-worshiping Adama they actually acknowledged that Gaeta isn't a bad man. (Question: did you also blame Adama for the executions/murders of those in "Collaborators"? Or did you agree that all of them deserved to be put out the airlock without a proper trial?)
In addition, while the Cylons' help in destroying the resurrection hub obviously means a lot, don't forget that resurrection was useless to the rebel Cylons, since the resurrection ships were under the control of Cavil & Co. The rebel Cylons didn't destroy anything that they personally hadn't already lost.
And re: equivalency: my point is that the series argues that notions of moral equivalency or inequivalency lead to a renewed cycle of destruction. "You killed us so we'll kill you worse!" That sort of thing, the series would seem to say, doesn't work anymore... unless you want to end up bashing your heads in on a cinder of a planet.
Edit: Sorry, some more stuff, since this question somehow keeps preying on my mind. Probably a sign that I need to get a life... ;) Anyway: according to your argumentation, Baltar deserves death much, much more than Gaeta. Yes, he was given a trial and he was proclaimed not guilty - but that doesn't change that he's as responsible for Gaeta for a much larger number of deaths.
@fett: I think they did a good job with how Gaeta's depicted - conflicted, naive, and letting his frustration get the better of him - so they got that side right. I'd agree with fett, though, that they were a bit too much in love with Adama to show that he's not just heroic and in the right and deserving of a big frakking statue right in the middle of CIC. At the very least I would have wanted the episode to acknowledge that Adama has quite a bit of dirt on him too. (In my opinion, Dirty Hands did something similar, though less compellingly, by glossing over Adama and Roslin's actions and decisions at the very end.) Apollo could probably have said something - or Dee, if she was still around.
Gaeta showed doubt. Adama showed no doubt at all at the end. I find the latter rather frightening, to be quite honest. And frightening is good, dramatically speaking, but less so when it's being sold as straight, 100% heroism or honour.
ZylonBane on 9/2/2009 at 20:23
My smegging god. It's as if certain people in this thread have no conception of the difference between acts of war and acts of treason.
That's some impressive moral gymnastics there, guys and gals.
Thirith on 9/2/2009 at 20:36
Stauffenberg's attempt to kill Hitler was treason. That in itself didn't say anything whatsoever about its moral justification.
Whether you call something an act of war or of treason says something about the situation, the context etc. It doesn't say anything about its ethics - at best it says how you, and you only, judge the act morally.
P.S.: Apollo going against his father's orders back in season 2 (I think that's when it was when Apollo basically backed the Prez) was treason. I don't see him sitting in a launchtube waiting to be shot. (Yes, what he did was by far not as questionable as Gaeta's actions, but your point seems to be about... well, something, but I don't see how it says anything about ethics or justification. You're making a legalistic point, ZB, at least to my mind - and I simply don't see how that is illuminating in any way.)
fett on 9/2/2009 at 22:45
Quote Posted by Fringe
Did many of you completely miss the murder and the threatened rape? What about when
Zarek massacred the elected Quorum to retain power, and all Gaeta did when he found out was look disconcerted for a moment before agreeing to go along with it? Or the mass murder on Galactica? Gaeta didn't fire any shots himself, but he orchestrated a mutiny that must have killed a quarter of Galactica's crew. Men and women in uniform that he'd served with for years, and who hadn't done anything wrong themselves.
There's just no equivalency. I'm sorry to go all ZylonBane on you--but if you don't see that, you're a
moral retard.
Actually, I guess I was associating the murder of the quorum with Zarek more than Gaeta, (the threatened rape is a wash - look at what Adam's marines have done to the blond cyon (nine?) over and over in the brig). But you're right - culpability lays at Gaeta's fee too, and Zarek warned him there would be blood if he started the insurrection.
@ZB: No, I don't think there's a damn bit of difference, historically speaking, between acts of war and acts of treason because whoever wins in the end gets to define those terms. They're morally and ethically relative.
I also note how you (yet again) managed to ignore my previous post calling you an asshole. Not trying to start a fight, just want you to know that choosing not to respond doesn't make you any less of one. An apology to Dia would be nice (one of those 'class' things that's usually lost on you). ;)
Fafhrd on 10/2/2009 at 03:58
Quote Posted by fett
(the threatened rape is a wash - look at what Adam's marines have done to the blond cyon (nine?) over and over in the brig).
Those were Cain's marines on the Pegasus, and Adama's crew killed the lead interrogator for it. Other than Tigh gettin' jiggy wit' 'er, Caprica 6 has been treated just as well as any other prisoner Galactica's ever had. You could even say better, what with the frequent consensual screwing. Sharon didn't get any conjugal visits from Helo when she was being held prisoner.
fett on 10/2/2009 at 05:11
Ah! You're right - I'd forgotten that too. Obviously I can't discuss this show because it's all running together for me...guess I'm just enjoying each episode and not analyzing it too much. Wish I could say that same for Lost...:erg:
rachel on 10/2/2009 at 09:17
Quote Posted by Thirith
P.S.: Apollo going against his father's orders back in season 2 (I think that's when it was when Apollo basically backed the Prez) was treason. I don't see him sitting in a launchtube waiting to be shot. (Yes, what he did was by far not as questionable as Gaeta's actions, but your point seems to be about... well, something, but I don't see how it says anything about ethics or justification. You're making a legalistic point, ZB, at least to my mind - and I simply don't see how that is illuminating in any way.)
This. He (and the others) only got out of it because because she turned out to be right about Kobol and the Tumb of Athena and Papa Adama "lost" the initiative.
However, he also didn't kill anyone in the process. They had made a clean getaway playing on the loyalist vibe of the Fleet. Zareck and to a lesser extent Gaeta however did not hesitate to cross that line. (I guess this would matter even in a case of treason, in that being the Admiral's son he could make a deal and get prison for life instead of a death sentence, had the Admiral "won" that confrontation. Maybe. But Roslin got the upper hand so they got a get-out-of-jail-free card.)
