Malygris on 26/3/2007 at 18:21
Quote Posted by Thirith
[spoiler]Just because whoever may or may not be a Cylon, that doesn't mean they are Cylons of the same kind as the good ol' toasters or even the seven models we've seen. It is quite possible that the final five are something entirely different and not sleeper agents such as Boomer was.
This would fail on two points, off the top of my head: first, if you're a Cylon, except you're different from every other Cylon, you've been fighting against the Cylons for 40 years, there's absolutely no evidence you're a Cylon and nothing has ever happened in your life to make you think you're a Cylon, then what exactly is it that makes you a Cylon? Second, and more to the point, it's weak and cheesy, and while somebody might think it's all so terribly clever to put such a literal spin on deus ex machina, I think it would fall flat on its face. I don't want my gritty, realistic sci-fi survival story turned into some kind of hackneyed existentialist bullshit because the writers painted themselves in a corner and couldn't come up with an out that fits the flavour of the series so far.[/SPOILER]
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
But it's already been established that the Cylons who wiped out the Colonies don't know who the final five are, and that the final five's connections to the rest of the Cylon race are tenuous, at best, and that speaking of them, or trying to find who they are, is taboo, hence the boxing of Deanna and her entire line.
And "this has all happened before, it will all happen again" is from the HUMAN holy texts.
I think the boxing of Deanna's series was due to her erratic behaviour and willingness to put the others at risk in order to achieve her own goals. What we've seen of Cylon society indicates that it is very strongly based on consensus, yet Deanna ignored all that, which represented not only the potential loss of the Eye of Jupiter, but more importantly a threat to the very foundation of Cylon civilization. Furthermore, it was Brother Cavil who informed her of the decision - the most pragmatic, and least religious, of all the Cylon models we've seen. While probably not significant, it would make more sense for Leoben or possibly Caprica 6 to have delivered the word if it was a religiously-based decision.
And while the quotation does come from human holy texts, it's been made quite clear that the Cylons know and understand these texts far better than most humans. The Cylons are working from the same books as the humans, but it would seem they've put in far greater effort in grasping their true meaning.
[SPOILER]I'm with Digi here. Having these guys represent the final five would be a cop-out, an admission that they've just run out of ideas. And since I have such high hopes that this isn't the case, I don't see how they could possibly be the ones. There's obviously a significance there - and I think someone here needs to start poring over Dylan's lyrics to figure out the hidden relevance - but the final five ain't it.
Does the fact that this is only happening to the leadership of the resistance on New Caprica not interest anyone?[/SPOILER]
Thirith on 26/3/2007 at 18:36
Quote Posted by Malygris
[SPOILER]This would fail on two points, off the top of my head: first, if you're a Cylon, except you're different from every other Cylon, you've been fighting against the Cylons for 40 years, there's absolutely no evidence you're a Cylon and nothing has ever happened in your life to make you think you're a Cylon, then what exactly is it that makes you a Cylon? Second, and more to the point, it's weak and cheesy, and while somebody might think it's all so terribly clever to put such a literal spin on deus ex machina, I think it would fall flat on its face. I don't want my gritty, realistic sci-fi survival story turned into some kind of hackneyed existentialist bullshit because the writers painted themselves in a corner and couldn't come up with an out that fits the flavour of the series so far.[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER]If you don't like what you call "existentialist bullshit", then you're in the wrong series. After season 1, about half of the series was about existentialist bullshit. Which is also why your first point strikes me as silly if it's supposed to be a criticism. Much like Bladerunner was about "What exactly is it that makes you human?", it seems quite central to me to ask what makes a Cylon. If you want to see the Cylons as enemies only, okay, but in the long run that's boring as hell.
You may still turn out to be right, and this may still prove to be the series' downfall. It may also be one of the most intriguing things that has happened so far. But if you think that the question of what makes a Cylon and what makes a human isn't central to the series and doesn't fit the "flavour of the series so far", you've been watching a different series than I have.[/spoiler]
Jonesy on 26/3/2007 at 18:42
Quote Posted by Malygris
Which part did you see coming?
[SPOILER]I saw Baltar being exonerated, Starbuck coming back, at least Anders/ the Chief being a Cylon but not Tigh or the aide. This has been a fairly deus ex machina moment, one that we really haven't seen the likes of since season 1. [/SPOILER]
Malygris on 26/3/2007 at 22:02
Quote Posted by Thirith
[SPOILER]But if you think that the question of what makes a Cylon and what makes a human isn't central to the series and doesn't fit the "flavour of the series so far", you've been watching a different series than I have.[/spoiler]
[SPOILER]But if there is nothing to differentiate a Tigh-Cylon from a human, then where exactly are they going with this? If a central theme of the show is the Cylon quest for humanity, what happens when we find out they've already achieved it? "What makes a Cylon" becomes completely irrelevant if Cylons are human - and as I said previously, aside from some music in their heads, there is absolutely nothing indicating that they are in fact Cylons. Are people who pick up radio stations through the filling in their teeth Cylons too?
And I'd still like to know what the odds are of the Cylons infiltrating the one battlestar out of the entire Colonial fleet to survive the war, and how, when less than 50000 people out of the population of 12 entire planets manages to escape the slaughter, at least five of them are Cylons. It seems rather unlikely, to say the least, and that in itself gives the whole thing a distinct whiff of cheeze.
[/SPOILER]
Also: Ron Moore is full of shit.
Chimpy Chompy on 26/3/2007 at 23:07
Maybe there's some link with the Lords of Kobol here.
Thirith on 27/3/2007 at 06:57
Quote Posted by Malygris
[SPOILER]But if there is nothing to differentiate a Tigh-Cylon from a human, then where exactly are they going with this? If a central theme of the show is the Cylon quest for humanity, what happens when we find out they've already achieved it? "What makes a Cylon" becomes completely irrelevant if Cylons are human - and as I said previously, aside from some music in their heads, there is absolutely nothing indicating that they are in fact Cylons. Are people who pick up radio stations through the filling in their teeth Cylons too?[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER]For pity's sake, have some imagination, man. Religion and the question of God - these have always been central themes in Battlestar Galactica, right from the beginning. The last five (or at least these four) don't just pick up Radio Intergalactic, I'd imagine; there's a more metaphysical element to it. They may be becoming aware of their connection to the Cylon God. They may be new prophets, or (to fit with the cyclical element) the old prophets returned. They may be the Lords of Kobol. The interesting element here could be that these people believed for their whole lives that they're normal - yet now, suddenly, they are told that they've been Chosen and that they have no choice of their own in the matter. That's what could differentiate them from people. (Apart from which, there have been hints with Tyrol at least.)[/SPOILER]
I'm sorry, but if you're not open to the metaphysical elements of the show, that's your problem rather than that of the show. It's been there from the beginning. It can still be done well or badly, but what you write up there to me sounds more like you thought BSG was something else than it was, and so far you successfully ignored the metaphysical themes. Now it's no longer possible. But as I said, that's your problem. You're fully entitled to say, "I don't like it." But you don't make a very good argument for "It doesn't make any sense, man!"
Quote:
[SPOILER]And I'd still like to know what the odds are of the Cylons infiltrating the one battlestar out of the entire Colonial fleet to survive the war, and how, when less than 50000 people out of the population of 12 entire planets manages to escape the slaughter, at least five of them are Cylons. It seems rather unlikely, to say the least, and that in itself gives the whole thing a distinct whiff of cheeze.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER]Again, to me it sounds like you dismiss anything metaphysical in the series as cheese. The series has been raising issues such as predestination from season 1 onwards. If these four characters are special, then it would make sense that fate brings them together. If you're not open to the possibility of fate, though, what you want is half a BSG, not the complete package. It's not as if they pull the themes themselves out of their asses. As I said, the execution may still be crap (or not). But you seem to be claiming that key elements of the series were sprung on you in the season 3 finale when they've been around since the Cylons nuked the twelve colonies.[/SPOILER]
Fafhrd on 27/3/2007 at 07:28
If you're going to bring up "what are the chances" arguments, then seriously, stop watching the show. What are the chances that a fleet of human survivors jumping more or less at random would stumble upon Kobol, the planet that according to their beliefs all humanity came from, and also has a map (of sorts) to this fabled Earth planet? What are the chances that, once again, kind of random jumping brings them to the one algae rich planet that ALSO has the ancient lost Temple of the Eye of Jupiter? And JUST IN TIME for the sun to go nova, too? You accept these things, but four characters being Cylons, who it has been hinted at, and outright stated by the creators of the show, are fundamentally different than all the other Cylons, all surviving the intial attack on the Colonies, and ending up on the same ship, is unacceptable coincidence?
And for christ sake, stop saying that the Five (or Four) infiltrated the fleet. The creators and ultimate purpose of the five is still an unknown. All that IS known is they weren't part of or party to the original attacks.
Thirith on 27/3/2007 at 15:19
*seems to remember that once upon a time Malygris actually had a point to make*
