Talgor on 29/3/2004 at 08:10

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EDIT: This post has lost some of its meaning after my understanding of things has increased. The Battle actually is NOT completely "inside Time" as I describe below. The Dragon broke (although maybe not quite then). Therefore what I am doing below is describing two pictures as one, a task doomed to failure. However, it was still a nice theory, so I'll leave it there. I may have more comments in other posts later in the thread. To the original text:

One of the most confusing events inside Time (thus excluding Dragon Break and the Second Numidium Effect) that I know of is the Battle of Red Mountain. We are given numerous accounts of the battle from a number of different points of view and by a number of different people with different agendas, and it's very hard to form any kind of coherent picture of what REALLY happened at the Battle.

One thing of course is to note that the event described as "Battle of Red Mountain" was not something that happened very quickly. It took days, possibly weeks (or even more?) for the battle to unfold in its entirety, so there was time for a lot of things to happen, and different sides recorded different events, each according to their own priorities. I believe this is one reason for the great variety in the descriptions.

Another are of course the points of view of those who make the record. The account of the battle from the Nord point of view is vastly different from that of Vivec. In addition, the record is affected by the agendas and goals of the one doing the writing, and we don't know how many times the books from which we learn of the battle have been re-written and revised to suit the needs of the current rulers (in this Tribunal Temple materials are fairly solid, their agenda probably has not changed much during the intervining millenia). This does not mean, however, that their agenda would make them especially committed to the truth, rather than their own interests.

And finally there is the "gossip" - effect. Most books are depicted as second-hand descriptions of events, but they may have passed down through many mouths before reaching the ear of the scribe. The most trustworthy source in this respect is Vivec, who is a first-person witness to many of the events that took place. However, we know that he also is reluctant to discuss or admit his own mistakes, and is therefore also an unreliable source. Luckily, this manifests often in the way that he omits information, refuses to tell about something, rather than lies directly.

So, what do we have? The material that even remotely refers to the battle that I've gathered comes from the following sources:
1. The Five Songs of King Wulfharth
2. The Battle of Red Mountain, and the Rise and Fall of the Tribunal
3. Nerevar at Red Mountain
4. The Real Nerevar
5. The War of the First Council
6. Saint Nerevar

Of these, Saint Nerevar is the least useful, it is clearly a book meant to support current (as of 3R427) Temple doctrine and reinforcing the validity of the Tribunal Temple as an accepted system of faith. The noteworthy details here are that Dagoth Ur is described as "traitor" and it is he who fatally wounds Nerevar; and that Nerevar blesses the Tribunal Temple (obviously meant to dispel the claims that the Tribunal killed Nerevar).

Probably the most accurate description of some of the events comes from Vivec, in book #2. Here we have the uncertain fate of the Dwemer (Nerevar did not believe they were destroyed, rather transformed/-ported), the wounding of Nerevar in battle rather than by betrayal (the death of Nerevar is not addressed at all), and some interesting points about Dagoth Ur. First of all, that he was a friend of both Chimer and Dwemer. Secondly, he had rather detailed information about the workings of Kagrenac's tools, which did not seem to be very publicly available information. This might indicate he already knew how to use the tools, to some extent. Thirdly, Dagoth Ur feels that using the tools may be fatal for the entire Chimer race, and I think it is from this that his refusal to hand over the tools to the Tribunal stems from. He knows/assumes, correctly, that they will use the tools to gain power themselves, in a way that even their own faith finds profane. He knows the Tribunal will be seduced by the tools and end up doing something "unholy" from even their own point of view. (Unfortunately he doesn't consider the effects on himself, and ends up corrupted also.)

The work that most supports Vivec's view is #3, a book from Apographa, and therefore probably mostly unaltered from its original form (since it's not available for the general public). This book confirms most of the details in Vivec's account, but appears to be told from the point of view of Alandro Sul, possibly dictated by him or written from accounts written by him. This account is therefore probably told from a point of view that mostly matches that of Nerevar himself. The most obvious differences are that Kagrenac has already used his tools to make the Dwemer immortal, yet they remain in the world, and that Azura instructs Nerevar how to use the tools to remove their immortality and destroy them. In this story Dagoth Ur is also aware of the Tribunal's ambition, and refuses them the tools. (The account of Nerevar's murder seems kind of tacked-on IMO, and may be a later addition to the account. However, in the 36 Sermons of Vivec, Vivec says he did murder Nerevar)

These two works are the most accurate, possibly even the only 1st hand descriptions of the events at the Red Mountain (although #3 seems to be 2nd hand, it feels like it was written soon after the battle). From these we can make an interesting observation: Dagoth Ur is not a traitor. He attempts to protect the Tools of Kagrenac from the ambitious and power-hungry Tribunal, knowing that they should not be used. It's only later, under the Heart's influence, that he becomes as corrupted as the Tribunal.

It's also interesting to note in "Nerevar at Red Mountain" how Azura is involved in the destruction of the Dwemer. This is the only account that is written by somebody who was actually present in the Heart Chamber when the Dwemer vanished (these were Kagrenac and his men, Nerevar, Dagoth Ur and their men, including Alandro Sul). Considering Azura's involvement in later events with the Nerevarine and the Tribunal's downfall, I see no reason to doubt that she was also behind the destruction of the Dwemer (especially since in this account it is said that the Dwemer turn to dust, and we see piles of dust among weapons and tools in the undisturbed Dwemer ruin beneath Mournhold).

The accounts of the battle and war in books 4 and 5 are more than 3rd hand accounts, and of faily recent origin from the looks of them. They place House Dagoth firmly on the side of the Dwemer, something which the more closer accounts clearly indicates they were not. The only interesting thing in these is the mention of the Nord and Orc allies, which are not mentioned at all in the previous accounts. This probably indicates they were a part of the war, but played no significant role at Red Mountain.

The most... different account of the whole affair is the Secret Song of Wulfharth Ash-King. It is of course a song, and therefore the least concerned with facts and truth, but it still holds several interesting details that are completely lacking from any other account. The most interesting detail is the presence of the "ghost of Shor", or Lorkhan, as the leader of the Nord and Orc armies. Interesting is also the account that Lorkhan was "sung into the world again" by the Tongues of the Nord, at the behest of Dagoth Ur, who was acting on orders from the then-mortal Tribunal! This would indicate that the invasion of the Nords that sparked the alliance of the Chimer and Dwemer was in fact engineered by the Tribunal, as an attempt to catch the Dwemer between two foes. The plain failed spectaculary from their point of view, as the two races of mer were allied, and the Nord armies eventually driven back. We have seen in many other places how the Tribunal spoke against allying with the Dwemer, and this makes it possible that this account is at least partially true. However, the Secret Song seems to compress the entire centuries-long conflict between the mer and Nords into one single battle, and therefore the details described there aren't very reliable. It is, however, interesting to note that this account has no mention of Kagrenac, and his role is taken over by Lorkhan. The significance of this, if any apart from "artistic freedom", is difficult to ascertain.

So, from all available sources, I present my own "best guess" and interpretation of what happened at the Battle of Red Mountain:

Remaining Dwemer forces (possibly including remains of Nord and Orc allied forces) are besieged at the mountain. Numidium has been destroyed, their armies have been defeated. However, they have many strong fortresses, and the unknown threat of Kagrenac's Tools, on their side. Nerevar manages to draw the majority of the Dwemer armies out of their fortresses and sends the Tribunal to fight them with the majority of their armies. He himself, with his guard and Dagoth Ur, penetrates into the heart of the mountain, and eventually into the Heart Chamber itself. During the battle, Nerevar slays Dumac, but is grievously wounded himself. Dagoth Ur slays Kagrenac, and recovers the tools from him, asking Nerevar what should be done with them. Azura appears and shows how to use the tools on the Heart in a certain way. Nerevar (or possibly Dagoth Ur, since Nerevar is seriously wounded) does this, and Dwemer everywhere turn to dust. Dagoth Ur thinks they were destroyed, Nerevar thinks they may merely have left their physical forms. Both Nerevar and Dagoth Ur think the tools should not be used, but Nerevar is weakened by his wounds and the terrible mental stress of fighting the Dwemer and especially Dumac, and hesitates. He entrusts guardianship of the tools to Dagoth Ur and leaves the mountain to seek the council of the Tribunal. The Tribunal see the tools, as profane as using them on the Heart would be, as a way to gain power to do good, and insist on keeping them. Nerevar disagrees, but eventually is persuaded to do this if the Tribunal swears on Azura to never use the tools. After the oath, at least the Tribunal return to the mountain (I'm not sure if Nerevar was with them, or resting) and faces Dagoth Ur, who knows their intentions. He refuses to give the tools to the Tribunal, knowing they would use them, and they fight. Dagoth Ur is driven away (and possibly thought killed) and the Tribunal recover the tools. In time, Sortha Sil figures out a way to use them to gain power, and the Tribunal journey to the Red Mountain, transforming themselves to gods. (Nerevar is murdered before this happens. Whether this was already at the battle or later I can't say.) Chimer transform to Dunmer, and Azura prophesises the return of Nerevar. The rule of the Tribunal begins.

Phew. Well, it's a nice theory and all, but does it work? ;) Comments, please!

Talgor on 30/3/2004 at 02:44

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Most interesting.

The Dragon broke! Yes. That explains much.

Hard is the way of historian and scholar in the Mundus where that which was not suddendy (hah!) has been...

I will read on, thank you...