AltF4 on 18/5/2011 at 05:02
I'm not sure yet whether the removal of attributes will improve the admittedly flawed levelling system. I hope so, as I frequently found myself NOT selecting the skills I wanted to use in the major skill group when playing oblivion. I would also spend a lot of time raising my skills prior to any level ups. At least you could choose NOT to sleep, and therefore never level.
Otherwise, as indicated above, you'd level far too quickly, and unless you managed to raise a skill tied to endurance x 5 each level (heavy armor/block, I'm looking at you here), your hit points would be very underpowered compared to the mobs' capacity for damage, and you'd get smacked around pretty quickly. My sneaky magic using archer would always have skills like blunt, unarmed etc in the major skill group, while the really useful stuff that I'd use all the time when dungeon delving, like alteration, illusion, mysticism, sneak and marksmen, I'd usually leave in the minor skill group.
I wonder how they will manage the other factors in the game that were tied to attributes - such as carrying capacity with strength, starting disposition on personality etc - I guess this is the real loss of complexity due to the removal of attributes.
Sg3 on 18/5/2011 at 09:20
I found that the whole R.P.G. thing hurt the game more than helped it. It would have been a better game if it had a good real-skill-based combat system instead. Think Mount & Blade's combat system with a set level. Yeah, that would have been awesome.
northeast on 7/6/2011 at 20:08
Here's hoping they allow people to easily mod the levelling, skills, attributes, etc. etc., all rather simply. Though, I never saw attribute mods (ie. adding some), so they appear to be something they hard code, at least in the past.
Anyway, the impression I got was that they're moving this game into a more "perk"y direction, a la Fallout, as the manner to really distinguish characters. In that manner, the perks are likely to be highly moddable. This does not mean they are guaranteed to ever provide me with deep and satisfying gameplay.
If they went the Fallout route, why didn't they also use SPECIAL? Not necessarily with the same 10 point scale, but the attributes make a lot of sense...
BenM on 15/6/2011 at 18:33
Hello Forum,
I am a new poster here although I have been a long time fan of the games revered on this site. (Ultima Underworld II and Thief in particular). I have followed the Elderscrolls series since Morrowind, and I have dipped my toe in to Daggerfall. I have enjoyed each installment of the series even though I had some gripes with each one, i.e. the magic system in Morrowind I did not particularly enjoy and the reduction of dialogue in Oblivion was a bit of a disappointment. Regardless of this there was still quite a bit of depth to the games (although I felt Morrowind provided a more immersing experience).
So for me the key is how well Skyrim delivers an immersing, atmospheric experience without sacrificing what has made TES great. I have no idea how this perk system will work out compared to the classic style of skills and numbers and I am looking forward to exploring it. I only hope, as another poster has commented on, that this new system does not limit the players ability to make and develop unique characters and classes that don't fit in to traditional Mage/Thief/Warrior classifications.
What I don't want to see in Skyrim is over-emphasis on combat. Now I have read that the stealth system has been revamped which pleases me greatly as a sneaky type player. I hope that other routes are presented to solving problems. TES has always been about adventuring so I really hope this game plays like this not as a hack and slash game.
I think I will end that there as I realise I am beginning to stray off from this threads theme.
Nameless Voice on 15/6/2011 at 19:07
To be fair, The Elder Scrolls games have always over-emphasises combat. You could never walk from one town to the other without having to fight a few dozen random beasties along the way. Most quests involved dungeons, fighting, or both. Generally, even the Thieves Guild quests would involve ridiculous amounts of combat.
I agree that I'd rather see more emphasis placed on alternative ways of dealing with problems (stealth, diplomacy).
BenM on 15/6/2011 at 19:28
Oh yes of course. The adventurer is often presented by conflicts on the road in TES. What I meant to say was that I hope the game developers have not spent their time re-vamping combat mechanics to the detriment of other facets of the game. Are we going to be forced to build up our combat skills to a certain level even if the player decides to play a more unconventional character?
The trailers and demos 'doing the rounds' on the web do a fine job of showing off the combat in Skyrim but I have not seen much of anything else. Will enchantment be in? Will levitate be coming back? How will speechcraft be tackled if it is not a skill any more? And how will make fast, agile cat burglars if they have removed acrobatics and athletics not to mention the speed attribute!
A part of me is eager to know more about exactly how this perk system is going to work and how it might allow the freedom of character design exemplified in the previous games. But I don't want to ruin the surprise for myself!
northeast on 15/6/2011 at 23:17
Whether levitate is coming back depends on whether they integrate towns into the rest of the world. In Oblivion, they couldn't allow you to levitate over the town walls since the town wasn't actually there. (Thank the modding gods that was changed.)
A PC with the right hardware can handle the strain of streaming the loading of all Oblivion had to offer, and I imagine the same will hold with Skyrim. (The engine is upgraded, but not something outlandish that can't be run on the 360, for instance.) From what I've read, large towns and "cities" will be behind city wall loading screens. (And developers don't put in the extra work to make use of better PC hardware if the release is multiplatform.)
Bethesda also capped stats in Oblivion too, which was a shame. (Last I checked this wasn't changed, perhaps couldn't be.) I always liked the feeling in Morrowind of leaping from one end of Vvardenfell to the other.
Sulphur on 19/6/2011 at 16:10
Why didn't they remove the skills and consolidate the attributes instead? If they really did want to streamline the goddamn game, all they had to was keep five attributes and tie the levelling system to XP like most RPGs normally do.
'Skills' were a superfluous extension of the attribute system anyway. If they're keeping the ability to tag primary skills which determine how fast you level-up, like the last go-around, this fixes nothing.
Nameless Voice on 20/6/2011 at 09:49
That doesn't even make sense. Skill-based levelling is the heart of The Elder Scrolls, they're hardly going to change that.
And there's no "picking" of primary skills any more. All your skills contribute to your levels now.
jaxa on 20/6/2011 at 11:41
Here's part of a post I made over on TDM. I worked real hard to try and justify the attribute removal, which could play out really good or really bad:
Attributes removed - I will have to see this to believe that it works. What is truth is that the attribute system of the previous two games encouraged you to practice efficient leveling, which is boring and tedious. It's not as if you wanted a character that you made to have any less than 100 in all attributes... and in particular, you wanted to get to 100 Endurance fast, which may have influenced your choice of star sign (The Lady, +25 Endurance/Personality).
Making the case for the removal of attributes is mostly predicated by the strong skill system:
Intelligence: If you're good at alchemy, you mix good potions. If you're good at lock-picking, or take the time to master the mini-game itself, you can open locks.
Willpower: Magic skills determine casting costs and effectiveness. Rather than having a willpower attribute to determine mana regeneration, you just lower the casting costs further for spells that you have good skill values for.
Endurance: Armor skills determine armor effectiveness.
Agility: In Morrowind, affected weapon speed / ability to hit, in Oblivion, marksmanship. Just let it be governed by weapons skills. Block can determine "stagger chance".
Luck: I guess they're not doing this but it would be interesting to have luck be a hidden attribute with a value of 1.0 and then alter that transparently using magic or equipment. Permanent increases could come from permanent abilities. Raising luck when you level up doesn't make a whole lot of sense. [Instead force the player to find potions, abilities, spells, equipment that raises Luck]
Personality: People can like you based on actions and not a number, which is definitely true in Oblivion which has different types of people (nobility and commoners vs. criminals and beggars) like you based on Fame and Infamy balance, not to mention quest outcomes and personal interactions. [And if that's not good enough for you or you haven't done much to warrant acclaim, cast a Charm spell]
Speed: It's hard to make a case for Speed removal when Athletics and Acrobatics were cut at the same time. Now that Fatigue is an "attribute", it will probably have to fulfill this function. The real question is how fatigue can be raised and at what rate.
Strength: Fatigue for carrying capacity, weapon skills determine weapon damage.
