Attack on London Bridge!

heywood on 8/6/2017 at 15:18

Quote Posted by Gryzemuis

But one thing that we noticed is that after the first wave(s) of muslim immigrants and their children (in the 70s and 80s), the current trend is that muslim immigrants become more and more strict in their religion. Even their children, who were born here. The old idea that if you give people time, educate them, emancipate them (culturally and economically), they will become more enlightened, doesn't seem to be true (anymore).

That is true. There is a trend worldwide where stricter forms of Islam are growing, and that's happening at least to some extent in every country. However, I think we tend to encourage this by treating them like second class citizens.

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You mean fighting ISIS ?

No. I meant help in trying to root out homegrown extremism. I want Muslim parents to teach their children well, watch over them, keep them away from militant Islamic ideology, be good citizen role models. I want American Muslims to call out extremism when they see it and not amplify the voice of extremists. Be proud to be Americans. Stuff like that. Ostracizing and scapegoating our Muslim populations and showing prejudice against them just encourages them to isolate themselves, turn inward, put their religious identity above their national identity, and consider embracing pan-Islamism.

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So everyone who thinks immigration from one country to another country is as good as a universal human right, what is your plan to better the world?

I generally favor having the freedom to migrate, but I'm not an open borders guy. I believe that the rate of immigration and the qualifications for immigration need to be regulated, because rapid waves of mass migration have led to instability. However, there should be no religion test in considering who we accept.

Pyrian on 8/6/2017 at 15:21

Let's see, what's in that chart. Religious law over secular law, suppression of women's rights, and traditional marriage. Sheesh, throw in tax cuts for the rich and that's the Republican party platform.

heywood on 8/6/2017 at 15:40

Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula

Anyways point is, those of you who think you who have only lived in Western Europe/America and think you have a clue what you're talking about when you discuss what Muslim countries are like or what the culture of "refugees" really don't. I spent a whole year living over their closely immersed in that culture and I don't even understand much more than the general feel of it being an extremely violent, very proud, highly tribal warrior culture. Almost all of the specific tribal/clan undertones to what drives daily events there escapes me.

You were in a place that was a war zone for about 3 decades before you got there and had been most recently ruled by the Taliban. Did you expect it to be a garden spot?

Don't think that it's representative of all majority Muslim countries, or even the Middle East. There's a lot of cultural variation across the region.

Trance on 8/6/2017 at 15:51

And, honestly, given how consistently and how often we've seen him get his own presented evidence on a bevy of different subjects wrong, I don't trust Tony to have an objective and accurate picture of the people he met over there either. Despite him having been over there while I haven't (which I will add that I've never actually seen proof of, but will give him the benefit of the doubt), to me, I don't consider him an authority on native muslims. He's been shown to be wrong too often for me to trust what he says.

Krush on 8/6/2017 at 15:57

You guys keep saying ISIS is the problem. I still don't understand how a European government can look at a huge mass of migrants such as this: (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/10/151028-slovenia-locals-refugees-photos/)

and pick out the ISIS members, especially if the other 70,000 people in the swarm can't or won't point out the radical ones. Plus as I've said before even if all of these were great people, some of their children are going to grow up and murder you.

You guys keep saying there is no uncontrolled migration, that all these folks are carefully vetted. I have seen no evidence of this. Plus some of their countries don't have paper trials to "vet" or they will have fake papers (especially if they are part of ISIS).

Gryzemuis on 8/6/2017 at 16:33

Quote Posted by Starker

I don't know how to improve integration, but I sure as hell know what makes it worse, and that's singling out groups of people and portraying them as the enemy.

I am not suggesting to take actions against muslims, or install an immigration-ban purely based on religion. I don't see muslim individuals in my country as the enemy. But I do think that there are forces (the basic principles of Islam, or Wahabism, or Saudi-Arabia, or Erdogan, or whatever) that actively work against what I believe in. And that actively work to make the world a worse place for many people. Work against humanitarianism, against science, against enlightenment.

A century ago, people fought against those old, conservative, religious forces. They recognized it as the enemy. That didn't mean every Christian was the enemy. But they were aware. Nowadays, it feels the left is not aware of its own history. And I consider myself extremely left.

Quote Posted by heywood

There is a trend worldwide where stricter forms of Islam are growing, and that's happening at least to some extent in every country. However, I think we tend to encourage this by treating them like second class citizens.

Agreed. And it started with GW Bush going "on a crusade". He did use those words in the first days after 911. However, he stopped using the word crusade very quickly. And the media have never repeated it. The story still being told is that Bin Laden attacked the US because "he hated our freedom". That is a bunch of balony. He attacked the US because he wanted to start a jihad against the west. And he succeeded. Bush made a huge blunder by attacking Iraq. For many reasons. But the main reason is that it was such a blunder is that the attack on Iraq did mobilize muslims to unite and fight back.
I would vote for Obama 100x over any Republican. But I was disappointed in how Obama handled the middle-east. He started good, by trying to withdraw from Iraq. But in the end, handling the "Arab spring", etc, I don't think he did much good. When Trump won, I thought that at least he'd withdrawn from all warzones. But alas, the Republicans want to have war somewhere, because that is good for business. So I am sure we will see more war during the next 3 years. And if it is war in the Middle East, it's gonna make everything yet even more worse.

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I want Muslim parents to teach their children well

That is not gonna happen by itself. It is not what we are seeing here (western Europe). Mosques have more and more influence on the common muslim. Backed by Turkey, Saudi-Arabia, etc. We've had Turkish and Eritrean politicians come have political meetings in our country. It seems people like Erdogan are now trying to use a strategy to influence the west by utilizing the immigrants of their countries here. How's that for foreign interference ? Young Turkish and Marrocan kids in NL identify with Turkey and Marroco first. Some even see NL as the enemy. Weird, but it is happening. (And again, not all, not even a majority I hope. But enough to make it noticable).

We (the west) have to start advocating for our beliefs. Because if we don't do it, nobody does. You don't want to shake hands with a woman, because she is a woman ? Fuck you. You mutilate your daughter ? Fuck you. Teenage kids beat up homosexuals ? Fuck you. Get a fine, go to jail, lose your resident permit, get kicked out of the country. You want to bring in foreign preachers who don't speak our language, but come preach stone-age ideas in your mosque ? Nope, we won't give them a working permit. Wanna kill animals in your own ritual way ? Nope, there are laws for animals too. Etc. There is stuff we can do.

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However, there should be no religion test in considering who we accept.

Agreed. We must stay true to our own principles. Every human is a human, and we can not discriminate between two humans. However, that doesn't mean we should just accept everything that happens. I would like to see some more actions by our leaders. Not pogroms, not immigration bans. A good start would be if policitians would stop tiptoeing around the issues. Because if sensible politicians ignore the issues, then another type of politicians will step in that void.

Krush on 8/6/2017 at 17:30

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Because if sensible politicians ignore the issues, then another type of politicians will step in that void.

What issues? Most of the people on this board have assured me that the migrants are just poor pitiful victims running from ISIS and need our help. Oh and that they are assimilating into our cultures just fine.

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You don't want to shake hands with a woman, because she is a woman ? Fuck you. You mutilate your daughter ? Fuck you. Teenage kids beat up homosexuals ? Fuck you. Get a fine, go to jail, lose your resident permit, get kicked out of the country. You want to bring in foreign preachers who don't speak our language, but come preach stone-age ideas in your mosque ? Nope, we won't give them a working permit. Wanna kill animals in your own ritual way ? Nope, there are laws for animals too.

If I reported this hate speech to your Dutch authorities would they arrest you?

Starker on 8/6/2017 at 19:44

Quote Posted by Gryzemuis

I am not suggesting to take actions against muslims, or install an immigration-ban purely based on religion. I don't see muslim individuals in my country as the enemy. But I do think that there are forces (the basic principles of Islam, or Wahabism, or Saudi-Arabia, or Erdogan, or whatever) that actively work against what I believe in. And that actively work to make the world a worse place for many people. Work against humanitarianism, against science, against enlightenment.

[...]

Agreed. We must stay true to our own principles. Every human is a human, and we can not discriminate between two humans. However, that doesn't mean we should just accept everything that happens. I would like to see some more actions by our leaders. Not pogroms, not immigration bans. A good start would be if policitians would stop tiptoeing around the issues. Because if sensible politicians ignore the issues, then another type of politicians will step in that void.

Now this I can agree with.

Tony_Tarantula on 8/6/2017 at 20:58

Fairly hostile interview with Piers Morgan on the topic.

I'd echo the question on the first part: why is that your average soccer hooligan gets his travel rights lifted, but people can go fight with ISIS and be allowed to return to the UK no questions asked?

(https://www.facebook.com/mediaresearchcenter/videos/1519026671453709/?hc_ref=SEARCH)

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I would vote for Obama 100x over any Republican. But I was disappointed in how Obama handled the middle-east. He started good, by trying to withdraw from Iraq. But in the end, handling the "Arab spring", etc, I don't think he did much good. When Trump won, I thought that at least he'd withdrawn from all warzones. But alas, the Republicans want to have war somewhere, because that is good for business. So I am sure we will see more war during the next 3 years. And if it is war in the Middle East, it's gonna make everything yet even more worse.

You're badly misinformed. Obama actually tried to keep the United States in Iraq, but the Iraqi government was unwilling to grant a status of forces agreement.

Weapons were being moved from Benghazi to Syria with US knowledge: (http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Pgs.-1-3-2-3-from-JW-v-DOD-and-State-14-812-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version1.pdf)

He had the US involved in more conflict zones that Bush did (this picture isn't even close to complete)

Inline Image:

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140923160247-bombed-countries-obama-story-top.jpg

That drone policy normalized what the Guardian described by saying that "Executive privilege has seduced the president into a reckless 'kill first, ask questions later' policy that explodes the US constitution"

(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/11/obama-drone-wars-normalisation-extrajudicial-killing)

Gryzemuis on 8/6/2017 at 21:21

Don't try to bullshit me, Tony. Yes, I am not happy with that Obama did. But please do not try to twist the obvious truth: it was Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the NeoCons who set the Middle-east on fire. By invading Iraq because of bullshit reasons. He did it for the Saudis, he did it for the oil-industry, he did it for his daddy, he did it for the military-industrial complex. What the Bush-clan did was a 1000x worse than what Obama did.