Attack on London Bridge!

Pyrian on 8/6/2017 at 01:06

Quote Posted by Renzatic

It's somewhat cowardly, and incredibly overkill, but there is a kind of cold logic to it.

Certainly in the U.S. there are far better ways to save lives, if that's the goal. Instead, the Republicans want to reduce medical care and increase pollution.

Gryzemuis on 8/6/2017 at 09:25

Quote Posted by heywood

We expect immigrants to have respect and tolerance for other cultures, and live by our laws and legal traditions. So no Sharia law for example. If they can do that, they're as compatible as any other culture. The vast majority of Muslims living here don't have any problem with it.

I believe these statistics are true.
(I've seen the (http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) backing numbers somewhere else).

Inline Image:

https://i.imgur.com/NQXQ7RV.jpg

Now these are numbers taken from muslims all around the world. The muslim immigrants in western countries might be a bit more tolerant than people from Pakistan or Saudi-Arabia. But one thing that we noticed is that after the first wave(s) of muslim immigrants and their children (in the 70s and 80s), the current trend is that muslim immigrants become more and more strict in their religion. Even their children, who were born here. The old idea that if you give people time, educate them, emancipate them (culturally and economically), they will become more enlightened, doesn't seem to be true (anymore).

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And from a practical standpoint we need their help in rooting out the nutjobs.

You mean fighting ISIS ?

What I hate is that the discussion is always made black versus white. These are the good guys, these are the bad guys. Nothing in between. No greys. Everybody agrees we should fight ISIS, because they are pure evil. Everybody agrees we shouldn't do anything else, because everyone who is not ISIS is a human being, and thus purely good.

See that image above.
I don't want to marry a woman who thinks wives should obey husbands. I don't want friends who think sharia should rule. I don't want a neighbor who think adultery should be punished by stoning. I don't want a colleague who thinks leaving a religion should be punished by death. I don't want such a society around me. Should I try to change their believes ? Good luck with that. Should I move if I'm surrounded by them ? Where to ?

So everyone who thinks immigration from one country to another country is as good as a universal human right, what is your plan to better the world ? How do you want to stop or get rid of these ideas from the stone-age ? Religious freedom is a universal right, and thus we should let religion do whatever it wants (e.g. spreading their foul/wrong/hurtful ideas) ?

Starker on 8/6/2017 at 11:03

Um... you can't just take a sample and blow it up to a total number of all the muslims. Statistics just don't work this way -- you are essentially claiming that 1-year-olds support sharia. And the question whether people support death penalty for apostates or adulterers was only asked from the people who said they support sharia, so it should actually be a percentage of a percentage.

And what you neglected to mention is that according to this poll most muslims want sharia only to apply to muslims. And that most muslims reject violence in the name of Islam, even in places like Afghanistan, which is about as bad a place as it gets.

Also, it's quite questionable how well a poll like this really reflects people's attitudes rather than safest possible answers in countries where it is criminal to criticise the religion. Even as such, it's mostly a reflection of how people answer in muslim countries, which varies wildly -- for example, in Turkey only 12 percent of muslims support sharia. Not that it's very surprising that muslims in countries where sharia applies support sharia in the first place.

So nothing in this poll really shows that most muslims have a problem conforming to Western culture. Especially if you consider that the people coming to the West are likely to be more liberal in the first place.

Gryzemuis on 8/6/2017 at 11:24

Quote Posted by Starker

You can't just take a sample and blow it up to a total number of all the muslims.

That is exactly how statistics work. You take a smaller sample, and extrapolate it to the bigger numbers.

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Also, it's quite questionable how well a poll like this really reflects people's attitudes rather than safest possible answers in countries where it is criminal to criticise the religion.

Holy fuck. Talk about bending broken stuff to make it sound like it is right.

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Even as such, it's mostly a reflection of how people answer in muslim countries, which varies wildly -- for example, in Turkey only 12 percent of muslims support sharia. Not that it's very surprising that muslims in countries where sharia applies support sharia in the first place.

Was I claiming something else ?
All that I did was post a link to a report that claims that there are large parts of muslims that support political beliefs that I absolutely disagree with.
And it is not only in countries that already have sharia law.
(https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey)
In my country (nl) there is support for these things amongst muslims too. Not a majority of course, but enough people that we can't just ignore the numbers as if they were zero. And it seems the numbers (absolute and relative) are growing. My question was: what do you suggest we do about that ?

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And what you neglected to mention is that according to this poll most muslims want sharia only to apply to muslims.

And does that make it less bad ? I support human rights for everyone, not only "my own kind".

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And that most muslims reject violence in the name of Islam, even in places like Afghanistan, which is about as bad a place as it gets.

Nobody likes it when a market-place is bombed. Is that the violence we are talking about ? Or are we talking about punishment for people who violate laws (stone them, decapitate them, throw them off buildings). I posted a report with numbers. You report with vague claims. Also, if 51% of people (most) reject violence, is it ok if the other 49% do support violence ? Is it ok if 10% support violence ? Is it ok if 1% support violence ?

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So nothing in this poll really shows that most muslims have a problem conforming to Western culture.

I can link zillions of newspaper articles, reports, whatever, how integration of muslims in my country is not without problems. And it is not getting better. I'll give you an example. Amsterdam is supposed to be a tolerant city. In the 60s, 70s, 80s a homosexual couple could walk through the city holding hands. Nowadays that is not possible anymore. If you do that, within a week you will be in the hospital. Homosexuals these days are safer in smaller villages than in our big cities. And no, I am not exaggerating. And the kids/men who do the beating up do not do it because they are brown or poor or whatever. They act violently because of their religion. I do not want that in my country.

So I asked a question: what do you suggest we should do about limiting hurtful influence of religion on society.
And your response was: "most muslims are ok".
That was not my question.
Thanks for fucking up the discussion. Both sides seem to do it. "All muslims are evil". "Not all muslims are evil". "All muslims are evil". "Not all muslims are evil". That isn't the issue. That isn't the question.

Starker on 8/6/2017 at 11:37

No, statistics don't work this way. You have to take into account demographics, margins of error etc. What your graph shows is about as accurate as if you had just made it up.

Also, the discussion was not "all muslims are evil" vs "not all muslims are evil". The discussion was "some muslims are evil, therefore we should ban all muslims" vs "that's insane". And then you came here intent to show how a large part of muslims hold backwards views and therefore can't really be integrated into Western society based on a completely bullshit graph that was in turn based on a somewhat questionable poll.

Harvester on 8/6/2017 at 11:55

While I don't share Gryz' antipathy of religion, I have to back him up a little on the following:

Quote Posted by Starker

So nothing in this poll really shows that most muslims have a problem conforming to Western culture.

That poll aside, Gryz is right that he and I could show you hundreds of articles and reports which show that integration of Muslims in the Netherlands is not going as well as we'd like. It might very well be true that the majority of Muslims don't have a problem conforming to Western culture. But the percentage that does have problems (I'm talking about Dutch Muslims here) is significant, it's not a small minority, and it causes many problems in our society. Whether this happens because of their religion I don't know, it might be more cultural, and lack of opportunities on the job market might also have something to do with it. But it can't be denied or white-washed away. Politicians that marginalize the problem actually play right into the hands of nationalists like Geert Wilders, because people with concerns about the behavior of a not-to-be-trivialized percentage of Dutch Muslims don't feel they're being taken seriously, so they turn to guys like Wilders.

EDIT:
(https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/achtergrond/2016/47/criminaliteit) Page is in Dutch, but the graph should be clear. It shows the percentage of registered criminal suspects by heritage. This is from the official Dutch Statistics Agency. People from the Netherlands Antilles score the highest, the majority of which are not Muslims. Leads me to suspect that there are more cultural than religious factors at play.

Starker on 8/6/2017 at 12:14

Well, I'm certainly not saying that there are no problems with integration in the Netherlands and elsewhere. But I also don't know enough about the Netherlands to be talking about it.

What I'm taking issue with is the outright misleading stuff, like the above graph or "migrant crime maps" or anecdotes that purport to show what savages muslims really are.

Gryzemuis on 8/6/2017 at 12:25

Quote Posted by Starker

You have to take into account demographics, margins of error etc.

But that report did take polls in several countries. Of course it is not as accurate as we'd like. But those numbers are not meaningless.

Twelve years ago I spoke to a muslim colleague from Pakistan. He was born and raised there. Went to the US when he was in his early twenties. And became a very successful engineer. (And entrepreneur now, he just sold his (https://www.businessinsider.nl/cisco-acquires-viptela-startup-for-bargain-price-610-million-2017-5/?international=true&r=US) startup recently).

He told me he was scared to see what was happening in Pakistan. His parents and other family were still there. He used to go over quite often. He told me he had a nephew who always was the laughing stock of the family. A bit dumb, almost retarded. Never went to proper school, never got educated, never worked a day in his life. That nephew became a preacher. And people started to ask his advice, and he would tell them what to do. People like that were getting more and more influence in his country. And he didn't like what he was seeing.

In my current job I don't have Pakistan colleagues. But I do have a few Indian colleagues. And when we talk politics, their biggest concern is the growing influence of Islam in India. Historically the fight was India vs Pakistan. But now they start to worry about muslims inside India too. Are they just racists ? Is it surprising that concerns about Islam are popping up all over the world ?

Islam is a religion that is focused on propagation. It wants to dominate the world. Just like Christianity was before WWII. Christianity did not bring a lot of good to the rest of the world. But since WWII we got them down and quiet. Of course most of Christians were just regular people (my whole family). But Christianity as a political force had a very negative impact on the world. Taking away their power and influence took a lot of effort. And some luck maybe. And looking at the Republicans in the US, we might have to do it over again. Do you think Islam is less threatening, less aggressive ? Do you think we can safely ignore it ?

And I am not talking about ISIS or terrorist. I'm talking about creeping influence in western society. Where girls get sexually mutilated. Women are pushed to stay at home. Homosexuals are rejected. Ridiculing beliefs from the stone-age now suddenly becomes forbidden or punishable. Science is rejected. You name it. I don't see any positive impact of religion to society (except being the opium of the simple-minded people).

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.... and therefore can't really be integrated into Western society based on a completely bullshit graph that was in turn based on a somewhat questionable poll.

Well, I believe that integration and enlightenment does not happen by itself, without any effort. In fact, it seems the last 20 years integration and enlightenment is going worse than that it was before. I think before 2000 or so, immigrants did want to integrate, feel at home in their new countries. Even if they planned to go back home some day. But nowadays we see societies inside our own society. And those separate societies move away from ours. Even their kids. Some of them even behave like NL is the enemy and everything here is wrong.

What do you want to do to improve integration ? Improve life for the common people outside the west ? Enlighten humanity ? Or do you think everything is OK as it is today, and we don't need to do anything ?

Tony_Tarantula on 8/6/2017 at 12:25

And a lot of people aren't even in the US aren't even trying to PRETEND to have any interest with refugee/immigrant integration in the culture.

On one hand you've got professional agitators who openly advocate Mexican annexation of the SouthWest United States, and then on others you have people doing shit like this:

Inline Image:

http://i.imgur.com/dtZPmOR.jpg

Although I've never quite understood how bringing people over to work for 0.25c an hour on a Koch Brother's farm, in slavery like conditions is somehow considered "compassion".....yet most American Democrats seem to think it is.

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Quote Posted by Starker

Even then people aren't going to grasp that nuance.

Here's a hypothetical (kinda) question: Do you think that the type of Christianity practiced by an urban Catholic is even remotely similar to the type of Christianity practiced by.....let's say a member of Westboro Baptist church from Montana?

Of course not. Why does everyone here seem to think that the same demarcation doesn't exist between western Muslims, urban/developed muslim areas, rural muslim areas, and muslim nations that still have a tribal/warrior culture?

I mean there's still Christian sects in rural Africa that burn witches FFS and I highly doubt anyone here would have any reaction other to condemn their hateful bigotry. So why do we tolerate shit like honor killings that are based on a questionable at best, highly literalist interpretation of Islam?

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Islam is a religion that is focused on propagation. It wants to dominate the world. Just like Christianity was before WWII. Christianity did not bring a lot of good to the rest of the world. But since WWII we got them down and quiet. That took a lot of effort. And some luck maybe. Do you think Islam is less threatening, less aggressive ? Do you think we can safely ignore it ?

That happened because there was a lot of pressure on the crazier elements of Christianity to pipe down. There largely isn't such pressure on Islam because most of the political and media establishment rush to defend it from any negative conception that people may have, even doing such crazy shit as to stage photoshoots and refer to attackers only as "bearded men" hoping nobody actually reads into the story.

Does anyone think that moderation is even possible with that dynamic of trying to rationalize on their behalf going on? And as a sidenote since WHEN did the progressive movement start loving organized religion?

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That's anecdotal evidence. It might be true of your particular experiences, but that doesn't make it a universal truth.

Around here, the handful of Muslims I see are women driving around in big ass SUVs, and buy CDs at the hipster trendy used media store off the interstate. The only reason I can even tell they're Muslims is because they always wear their hijabs, and apply more eyeliner than usual.

So is my experience more truthful than yours?

Well....since you're an American liberal and your "truth" isn't "hateful" or "bigoted" then obviously yes.

Note one specific aspect of what you're talking bout "the hispter trendy used media store". Do you think that same social dynamic exists in areas where anything or anybody associated with "hipster" would get their asses kicked such as low-income Detroit neighborhoods?

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Twelve years ago I spoke to a muslim colleague from Pakistan. He was born and raised there. Went to the US when he was in his early twenties. And became a very successful engineer. (And entrepreneur now, he just sold his startup recently).

In my current job I don't have Pakistan colleagues. But I do have a few Indian colleagues. And when we talk politics, their biggest concern is the growing influence of Islam in India. Historically the fight was India vs Pakistan. But now they start to worry about muslims inside India too. Are they just racists ? Is it surprising that concerns about Islam are popping up all over the world ?

That doesn't even begin to describe the half of it in that part of the world.

Here's a few of the crazy things that happened while I was on the other side of the border, not too far away...and in a Pashtun region which to many of the locals is much more the same "nation" than the official government borders are:

- Police deputy was relieved for taking boys from a local village into his checkpoint and raping them.

- A man in one village shot his father. He claimed to have been justified because his father owed him money and hadn't paid him back.

- The local insurgents Blew up a group of kids. This was not an accident, this was to set a trap for the local "police" in that village (just a village militia given uniforms so other people could know who they were) When they went to help the kids more bombs went off.

- A favorite kid's pasttime is throwing rocks at passing vehicles. One day some old man was sitting in the ANP's jail cell. It turned out that he'd been driving past a village near the Kandahar river when some kids threw rocks at his pickup truck and put a crack on his windshield. He got out of the car, chased them down, and beat them within an inch of their life.

- And of course multiple examples of dudes fucking little boys and goats.

- Numbers don't count for much. Literally every single report we got from the local forces multiplied the actual number of Taliban involved from 10-100x.

And that's just a few examples, and they are not out of the ordinary.....in fact they're rather tame compared to what some of the other guys in my brigade saw at other teams in the region.

Anyways point is, those of you who think you who have only lived in Western Europe/America and think you have a clue what you're talking about when you discuss what Muslim countries are like or what the culture of "refugees" really don't. I spent a whole year living over their closely immersed in that culture and I don't even understand much more than the general feel of it being an extremely violent, very proud, highly tribal warrior culture. Almost all of the specific tribal/clan undertones to what drives daily events there escapes me.

If you aren't from the region you don't have a chance in hell of understanding it.... My advice to anyone here trying to inform themself about life in any similar region is to completely ignore the musings of people who haven't ever been there, take those of people who have spent a significant time there with a grain of salt, and recognize that almost everything you hear from a local will be coated with layer of saving face for themselves and their tribe. Only expect accuracy if you're talking to someone who is native from the area who in turn is talking about a person or group that they don't have any family ties to.

Starker on 8/6/2017 at 12:52

Quote Posted by Gryzemuis

But that report did take polls in several countries. Of course it is not as accurate as we'd like. But those numbers are not meaningless.

But they are meaningless. Or do you really think newborn children support sharia? And what about the percentages of the people who support death penalty being artificially inflated?

Quote Posted by Gryzemuis

What do you want to do to improve integration ? Improve life for the common people outside the west ? Enlighten humanity ? Or do you think everything is OK as it is today, and we don't need to do anything ?

I don't know how to improve integration, but I sure as hell know what makes it worse, and that's singling out groups of people and portraying them as the enemy.