Asking a little TOO much from Spector...

King Ronald on 29/3/2002 at 19:06

Before you begin, I am about to be completely unreasonable.

Did anyone get the feeling in Deus Ex that they wern't TOTALLY in control? What I'm saying is, is that it did feel that for most of the game you were being ordered around one way or another. It was only in the short span when you activate the NSF transmitter in New York to arriving in Battery Park that it felt that anything was possible - you against the world. First Jacobson yaks at you. Then Manderley. Then Paul. Then Daedalus. Then Tracer Tong. A bit of Savage, interspersed with Daedalus, Everett, and then the game ended - all of them telling you WHAT MUST BE DONE, with no actual choice about what was going to happen, just little choices about HOW you got their, like a rollercoaster - you could shut your eyes, scream, wave your arms in the air and so on, but you began at A and ended at B. For example, when Jock says "J.C, there are troopers in the park, I'll wait for it to clear up a bit" or whatever he said, why cant you do the INSANELY SIMPLE AND FAR MORE SENSIBLE option of just going on the train TO ANOTHER STATION, at random, so the UNATCO bozos get confused and all their plans are shot to hell. Why couldn't Jock fire one of those missiles he used to get out of the Versalife rooftops at Hermann and the bots on the ground?????

WHY???

WHY???

And before anyone says, "Hey man, a lot of people put YEARS of hard programming so you could play Deus Ex", I'm going to respond with "Yes, I understand that, and totally respect that, but the team pulled off a mammoth task with the original, and I don't mind waiting another four years if they can raise the stakes with the sequel as much as they did with the original."

Why not program it so that there are in fact say, hundreds of different things in any situation, thereby creating THOUSANDS of possible game permutations. Deus Ex, if you break it down totally, is about player choice in gaming (everything else is superfluous) so why not continue this blisteringly evolutionary streak by increasing what can be done. Why not have it (and I dare someone to shout "impossible" at this), so that you, the player, can TYPE IN EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT J.C TO SAY, and have everything react to this. This would beckon a new era in player interaction and choice. It would mean that you could sneak up behind NSF troops in Liberty Island and say "Hey, guys, don't shoot! I wanna join your gang! Go on, I'll get the Ambrosia to safety, and tell you what, to prove myself I'll clear out the UNATCO H.Q right now, and bring Manderleys head on a plate for you. Go on." PING! Instant new game experiance, with you possibly escaping on the plane with Lebedev, or blowing up Unatco H.Q in the first level, or being recruited into the NSF after you tell Paul to "go to hell!" and report Jock for sympathising with the rebels, or getting into a bar-room brawl with Joe Greene, or even saying to Sandra Renton "Look you ungratefull cow, I've saved your hide at least five times, and I want you to show me and your poor dad a bit of RESPECT, he isn't that bad!" instead of "I think you should be more grateful for what he has done, lets leave it at that."

Hey, why not even just make the dialogue more realistic, and dare I say it give J.C more character by, ooh, having more lines like "You've got ten seconds to beat it before I add you to the list of NSF casualties". Perhaps J.C could even WAKE UP for five seconds (he always sounded REALLY BORED to me) and say to Manderley after that whole "NSF Generator" episode something like "By the way boss, I think we have a major security breech going on - I was in Hells Kitchen and I found this heavily fortified underground base, but it WASN'T the NSF, It was these "MJ12" guys." I would have loved to have seen Manderleys reaction to THAT.

Hey - while I'm at it, the shooting and sneaking should be bumped up as well. The shooting side should be as good as Half-Life, with far more weapons of mass destruction than two weak-ass pistols, two shotguns, a machine gun, flamethrower, BFG and rocket launcher - and ditch that REALLY STUPID "train the crosshair on him" thing so you are more accurate - that means I cant run at the NSF with dual pistols (why not have two weapons simultaneously ala Soldier of Fortune 2) quoting from Pulp Fiction. And if I wanna get a little Thiefy, then perhaps we could have a little more outdoor levels, a little more sophisticated stealth kit (this is 2050 for gods sake and I'm taking on commandos with a friggin crossbow) and a light gem wouldn't be too much to ask for. At the end of the day, the only tactic I found that worked was to crouch until you're near the enemy, then open fire with a machine gun or flamethrower, with LAMs for bots.

And make the levels bigger man.

erm.........can't think of anything else to demand. So I bid you Adieu!

Now, you rabid forumites, start talking!!!

Cyborg on 29/3/2002 at 21:42

Yep...That was a bit annoying when you needed to shoot those troopers with a crossbow...

In year 2050 i think those weapons would be much better, than a stone aged crossbow.

ICEBreaker on 30/3/2002 at 04:16

Wait another 25-50 years and you will very possibly get something similar. Not only do we not have the programming abilities, but it also requires hardware capability vastly in excess of the current desktop.

Nethawk on 30/3/2002 at 05:22

When tomorrow's computer chips are based on Human DNA, I think we'll be pretty close to the kind of escapism you're seeking. Trouble is, once that kind of technology comes in, will you be able to get out from it?;)

Random on 31/3/2002 at 03:39

I agree with what you're saying, Ronald. A lot of this stuff will be improved upon in DX2. I highly doubt that there will be any kind of 'forced failure' like the Battery Park thing. I'm interested in seeing how linear the storyline is though, and if it will branch out early on or only later in the game.

I think a lot of people expected too much from Deus Ex when the word 'non-linear' appeared in a few previews. The designers themselves only ever said that it was the levels themselves that are non-linear, but the overall game and storyline is 99% linear, with the only story-branch in the final level. (You decide how to get to A to B, but don't even think about skipping to C, sort of thing.)

Like I said, it will be interesting to see what approach Ion is taking for DX2.

Phydeaux on 31/3/2002 at 08:14

I agree with most of that except the last paragraph, about shooting. Have you ever shot a gun? Ok, have you ever shot a gun rapid fire running 10 mph and hitting the eye out of a flying bird 100 feet away?

For a shooter, Halflife was unrealistic and idiotic. I could put 7 rounds into the eye of a Marine from 200 feet away and the sumbitch would still be standing. I could do it running too. And if that's bad, think of how many rounds you could take as Gordon Freeman. Dammit, if I get shot in the head, I should fucking DIE. OK, the crosshairs look a little silly, but they make sense. If you're moving, your aim is drastically jepordized. And I don't care if you are Chow Yun Fat, you're probably not going to be able to simply shoot with pinpoint accuracy. Aim takes time, patience, and a steady hand (OK, you are a cyber-augmented superhuman thingy, but still, be realistic).

The crossbow exists because it's an extremely effective, effencient, and silent way for a nonlethal takedown. A bullet, although potentially silent, is slightly more then nonlethal. In retrospect though, a dart gun might have been a better idea (ala Metal Gear Solid).

Also, if JC were to say what we typed, he would sound like Stephan Hawking or a Speak and Spell. And you're complaining that he's monotone? Personally, I rather liked JC's voice. Very Joe Friday.

As for being linear, Deus Ex actually is except for the main plotline. Replay the game, but do things differently. Shoot the NSF guy in the first level instead of taking him alive. Leave Gunther to fend for himself. Don't kill Lebidev on the 747. Avoid the Castle Clinton shootout. Check out Sarah taking a leak in the bathroom. Save/Don't save Paul/Jock. Kill Maggie Chow before you even find the Dragon's Tooth. There are a TON of things you can do differently.

As for the Subway capture, I did (and many, many others, including Warren Spector himself) were kind of annoyed that you couldn't choose to stay with Unatco, at least for some time. I'm reminded of Wing Commander 4. There is a point where you can choose to stay with the Confederation or defect to the Border Worlds. At this point, the plot breaks in 2 different directions depending on your choice, but either way you end up with the Border Worlds and at a point the 2 plots converge into one again. It would have been cool if Deus Ex did a similar thing at the Subway capture, but alas. Remember that Deus Ex took over 2 years to make as it was. More would have been cool, but perhaps just wasn't practical.

Still, Deus Ex (IMO) is still the best game ever made. Even with perfection, theres room for improvement.

King Ronald on 31/3/2002 at 16:43

Hello again.

Phydeaux:

"Aim takes time, patience, and a steady hand (OK, you are a cyber-augmented superhuman thingy, but still, be realistic)."

Ahem. This is a future world where an ancient conspiracy is killing people with a "nanomechanical virus", where helicopters can fly from New York to Hong Kong within twelve hours, where soldiers have a "kill-switch", where robotic spiders stalk the streets and genetic mutants lurk in sewers. You ARE a cyber-augmented superhuman thingy -

And you talk about realism???

Since when was that on the agenda???

If i can leap buildings in a single bound, regenerate both legs after stepping on a landmine, see through walls and always visit important citys at night, then I dont think pin-point accuracy is too much to ask for, do you? I mean he is meant to be a high-tech killing machine.

Also - the AMAZING KING RONALD INTERACTO DEVICE(tm) wouldn't sound like speak and spell, because version 1.1 would make it so....erm....you talked into it, it recorded your voice, and THEN J.C said it. And everyone reacted to it. haha!

Any other questions or comments?? ;)

ICEBreaker on 1/4/2002 at 12:50

I don't really see the problem. Increase your rifle skills if you want pin point accuracy. Deus Ex is far too easy as it stands. Ever tried Hitman's sniper rifle? DX aiming is terribly easy compared to that.

King Ronald on 1/4/2002 at 16:44

Yeah, alright, I can't argue with that.
But no, I haven't tried the Hitman sniper rifle - do you think it should replace the sniper system in Deus Ex or something?

ICEBreaker on 2/4/2002 at 15:29

No not replace. DX is fine as it is.

In Hitman, the rifle bobs up and down first wildly, but after a few seconds will bob more controllably allowing you to squeeze off a shot as it goes past the head.