Sg3 on 10/8/2012 at 12:26
Quote Posted by DDL
Dark Messiah had "mediocre combat"? Really?
I always thought it was a fairly 'meh' game, massively massively enhanced by having some of the most engaging and weighty-feeling first-person combat ever.
Ugh. Block was just a "hold down to block everything." That's a deal-breaker right there. The sounds were terrible--sounded nothing like real metal-on-metal and metal-on-flesh. That certainly doesn't help. But perhaps the worst part was that sword swing direction was tied to character movement. Absolutely unacceptable--what happens when I want to swing left-to-right while moving forward? Really, after
Mount & Blade, I can stand hardly any other melee combat systems. (Not that
M&B has gotten it quite right--no. But the choosing of attack direction with mouse movement, and the parry requiring proper timing, is a must for any melee game which is trying to feel lifelike rather than only looking it.)
Add the E-Z disarm and kick, and the combat was appallingly un-fun in
D.M.. That's why I never bought the game. Looked moderately interesting, other than that, if bland. A real let-down after how unique and wonderful
Arx was.
Having the same sort of let-down with this tired old "hey guys let's do something different--I know, we'll cartoon-ize the characters" thing here. It isn't as though half of all the multi-million-dollar games have done that. Well, no point bitching about it further, really. Looks like most of the people in this thread have jumped on that bandwagon, and so down my throat for objecting. [scowl] Well, carry on throwing virtual tomatoes at me for loudly not liking children's picture-books thrown into my immersiveness.
DDL on 10/8/2012 at 12:45
M&B uses "hold down block" to block everything.
M&B also has a fairly overpowered kick (albeit far fewer handy cliffs).
M&B combat is clunkily hilarious, but not exactly realistic. Horse-combat is awesome as tits, but anything else and I can basically slaughter entire armies myself by just backpedalling while doing vertical downslashes. If there's a handy doorway to stand in while murdering, then "gg army, you lose".
Your objections seem a little facile, too: "what if I want to slash forwards while looking sideways" is an equally valid criticism you could level at M&B's system.
I guess a lot of it comes down to personal preference, but I generally found Dark Messiah's system to be one that worked with you, whereas in M&B unless I'm just doing the ol' downward slash murderfrenzy, I feel like I'm constantly fighting against the clunky constraints.
Though like Jason Moyer, I also spent a lot of time in DM kicking people off cliffs. And it was awesome. :D
faetal on 10/8/2012 at 12:48
I've yet to encounter a melee system I prefer to Severance: Blade of Darkness.
Sg3 on 10/8/2012 at 12:51
I meant
Mount & Blade at maximum difficulty. There, not only does parrying need to be done at the right moment (after his attack starts, but before it hits), but you also have to do it in the right direction. As for slashing one direction while turning another, I can do it, as can most players, and I do it fairly regularly--it requires a bit of practice, though. But even if it weren't possible, being able to move independently of your sword's direction of travel is critical for footwork--being able to turn independently, not really. There are plenty of times when one needs to step, for example, forwards while swinging laterally, but there are few or no times when one needs to turn to the right while swinging to the left. This is true both in real swordplay and in
M&B.
As for the kick, I loathe it because a kick should be useless in a swordfight, and it isn't quite as useless in the game as it should be. If I made the game, there would be no kick (and there wasn't one, in the original
M&B). That aside, the kick isn't as deadly as you make it out to be. The only problem I have with being kicked comes from human-player spearmen using a fast spear, but that's spears being all borked as much as the kick being overpowered. Same with backpedalling (which doesn't work against human players, except for again the spear).
I'm with you about one thing:
M&B is clumsy. As I said, I don't think they got everything right, or even most things. It's the choosing sword swing direction with mouse movement, and the system of blocking (specifically, the fact that you have to do it after the guy starts his attack), which I feel should be incorporated into every sword-fighting game--optionally, of course. Here's a short video I made which won't suddenly make you like the game, but it should demonstrate that
M&B swordplay isn't all backpedal-slash-kick: (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1oUqh98YzM)
Pyrian on 10/8/2012 at 15:19
I think you're just too picky, Sg3. Your desires for what a game should be are so narrow that they'll never really be satisfied, perhaps even if you write the thing yourself (in my experience it's difficult enough just to get the sort of things you're talking about functional).
Dark Messiah isn't about swordplay, it's about running around wreaking havoc. That's where the fun is. Going through the game with straight-up choppiness is too easy on normal and a dull grind on hardcore. But thankfully there's a whole lot more to do than swing a weapon.
You don't like Dishonoured because it looks a bit off? So does every game. You'll really have a better time if you can get over it. I know you can if you played Mount&Blade...
SubJeff on 10/8/2012 at 15:26
I played Dark Messiah on the hardest setting, was as pure hack and slash as I could be, and it was brutally awesome. It took me over 100 goes to do a room near the end of the game because I had to do everything just right. I don't think I'd spend the time playing it like that again but man it was great.
Muzman on 10/8/2012 at 16:47
Dark Messiah is probably the only game I've ever played where I got to the end and said "I think I'll play that again and do everything different, right now!". Everything else, good or bad, seems kind of daunting for various reasons and I don't want to go back immediately.
It's got a few lumps and bumps and things I wish were different. But it's also got this breezy swashbuckling charm.
june gloom on 10/8/2012 at 17:18
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Your desires for what a game should be are so narrow that they'll never really be satisfied
Malleus on 10/8/2012 at 17:32
Not to mention that Dark Messiah was a pretty good stealth game as well. I was an unstoppable ninja assassin on the majority of the levels, and it was great. Took out whole orc camps in broad daylight without them figuring out what was going on. Killed the cyclops too without him seeing me. Ghosted some parts when I got tired of backstabbing. Avoided an entire spider cave via clever application of the rope bow. :cool: DM was a fine game, I say.
Renault on 10/8/2012 at 18:32
I fully admit, I'm excited for this game due to the pedigree, but my highest expectations are that it won't be much better than Bioshock. :p
