Yakoob on 19/3/2012 at 01:18
Briareos H, I stated that my beef is with how much new vs. repeated stuff is, but your choice of example clearly shows you didn't get that:
Quote:
The game closest to your idea of bad design I can think of is The Witcher 2. The narrative in The Witcher 2 unfolds
radically differently if you choose to side with one faction leader or the other. If it unfolds radically different, then you are getting a ton of new content on a 2nd playthrough, ergo, it's how replay value SHOULD be done. And I think an extra dimension I want to add here that you made me realize is whether the "extra" content stems from a conscious and logical choice, or an arbitrary one. In both Witcher and SoC, the results you get follow organically from your gamestyle, rather than being an arbitrary restriction.
A better example would be Alpha Protocol ending in the base. I was facing two doorways at one point chose the one on the left. As soon as I crossed the doors behind me slammed shut and the game autosaved. Oh well, I went through the endgame and never as much as even heard the mention of Mina, my partner and lover through the whole game.
Reading some threads I found out that she was in fact behind the other doors and going through them FIRST would lead to a conversation uncovering extra info and including her in the ending, and then make me go take the same door I took on my playthrough and continue as normal.
Because the doors randomly decided to shut themselves and the game autosaved, I "missed" this content for no other reason than arbitrarily choosing the wrong door. This isn't replay value. This is bad design. And I was pretty pissed about it after.
EDIT:
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
This. Allowing the player to experience everything in the game results in either the player having no choices, or choices that don't mean anything in the context of the narrative. Both of which constitute worse design than in Yakoob's hypothetical game..
Hmm, you are right, I am NOT opting for the player to have to experience "everything" in their playthrough. My Skyrim character is a strong warrior/mage hybrid, and I am perfectly content never experiencing the "stealth" gameplay or clearing every single cave. Likewise, in the Witcher I was glad when I sided with one side and saw the gameplay unfold involving it, rather than doing the Deus Ex IW thing of "do every quest for every faction because they will take you back no matter."
Lol, I think I am managing to confuse myself a bit here. I think what I was originally getting at is "poor design" is content that you miss due to arbitrary restrictions or poor explanation of how to access said content, that only matters if said content is of significant value or impact on the overall game. I guess placing secret dungeons somewhere on top of a random mountain in Skyrim is ok because you have about 500 of those so if you miss one it's fine. But making me miss a key character and skimp on ending because I arbitrarily chose the wrong door in Alpha Protocol and had no choice of backtracking was just annoying.
henke on 17/4/2012 at 14:17
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IyDvT7XpaBc?version=3&hl=sv_SE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>
Story looks intriguing enough and it's giving me Game of Thrones-vibes(though that's probably largely because I'm reading A Clash of Kings right now). No actual gameplay footage but if it ends up playing like the pre-rendered footage looks then I'd be ok with that.
demagogue on 17/4/2012 at 14:43
Great! I think you can get a decent idea of what the gameplay will be like from it. We've got Assassin's Creed & Thief and some Bioshock... open levels, roof hopping & sneaking past guards, the special powers... World is more original than usual. Definite colonial-era vibe from it, 1890s-1910s.
mothra on 17/4/2012 at 14:52
CGI crap. sad face.
First developer interviews, the game informer hub, then gameplay shown behind closed doors.
Then media blackout to further work on the game, take in the feedback, a few screenshots/art videos get released ...
I myself was so waiting on an updated game show video "different ways to play a level" and then again nothing....and now...this. bleh
Don't get me wrong, I still like the design/atmosphere they are showing
and I like the tagline: revenge solves everything but pleaaaase: gameplay. this does not cut it at all
jay pettitt on 17/4/2012 at 15:21
Is the (
http://www.dishonored.com/) website new too?
Anyhow, swanky trailer. Love the themes, the imagery and the mood. But given that this is 2012 and not 2002, I'm not quite brave enough to hold my breath for a stunning game to go with it.
(also, chappy in the wagon has an awesome nose.)
demagogue on 17/4/2012 at 17:39
This is what I posted in another forum on it:
I think we can guess quite a bit about the gameplay (they also talk about gameplay in some of the other videos, and show a few in-game clips, enough to make some guesses). It's probably going to be first-person (whether you can flip to 3P, not sure). It's mission based. You have to make your way through the streets into a building, assassinate someone, and get out. Leaning & swimming(?) are in.
The actual mission design is more like Thief (TDS) than Assassin's Creed; there are usually 3 or 4 different routes to get to your target -- like the roof, from underground, a water route, the front door, back windows.... Levels are apparently made & tested for the possibility of ghosting, so you can ghost every level if you want (minus your target). But you're equipped enough to fight your way all the way in.
You've got Bioshock-like special abilities. The ones they talk about in the commentary are the freeze time one (you see in the video), a warp (jumps your character about 10 feet in some direction), a possession (you click towards an AI and temporarily possess their body to walk around for a minute or so as them; apparently physically posses so your body is somehow "inside" them for the duration?), then probably attack powers like BS had.
In a commentary they mentioned jumping off a building and at the last moment possessing a guard just before you'd hit the ground, and another one was using a speed upgrade to jump from one roof, and mid-jump you warp yourself across to another distant roof, which the devs didn't think you could do but left those kinds of possibilities in if someone is clever enough to figure them out (that's more Thief-like mission design; it's more tactical than arcade, so it doesn't matter what path you take or if you go somewhere "you're not supposed to", if you can get there).
And I think the video gave you an idea of all the tech gizmos, the mask probably lets you zoom-in and see x-ray a short distance and stuff like that, a mix of sword fighting, bows, and some old fashioned guns, I bet there's some kind of grappling hook or rope arrow... There's a lot you can get from what they've released.
mothra on 17/4/2012 at 17:55
and they confirmed it will be first person only. thank god for that.
EvaUnit02 on 18/4/2012 at 03:20
Quote Posted by demagogue
This is what I posted in another forum on it:
That's nice. Care to break it up into paragraphs so that it's actually legible? Cheers.
june gloom on 18/4/2012 at 03:33
and yet you manage to be more obnoxious than his lack of line breaks, gj
