Starrfall on 9/1/2011 at 17:13
To further explain why people are drawing a connection with the Palin and the other babbling idiots on the right, here's a quote from Giffords after her office was vandalized:
Quote:
For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action.
And her 2010 opponent's idea of a fundraiser?
Quote:
During his campaign effort to unseat Giffords in November, Republican challenger Jesse Kelly held fundraisers where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle. Kelly is a former Marine who served in Iraq and was pictured on his website in military gear holding his automatic weapon and promoting the event.
And the dead federal judge?
Quote:
Just two years ago, he was targeted with death threats -- and given a security detail -- after ruling that a group of illegal immigrants could go forward with a multi-million dollar civil rights lawsuit against a state rancher, reports CBS News chief legal correspondent Jan Crawford..
The Arizona Republic reported in July 2009 that Roll once logged more than 200 callers in one afternoon after the ruling that yielded death threats against the judge and his family.
Now, Roll's death seems to be an unfortunate case of "in the wrong place at the wrong time," just like the poor kid who's dead. And I haven't seen anything thats connects the shooter to any
specific pundit or politician or what have you, just general loopy anti-government ravings. But I also haven't seen anything that shows this is completely unconnected to all the retarded political rhetoric that's been directed towards democrats. And let's not forget that there have been other recent attacks or attempts by right-wing activists. Two from within the last year include George Tiller (dead) and the planned attack on the Tides Foundation and ACLU.
So we don't really know yet. But even leaving this completely aside, it's clear that the poison Palin and her ilk have been spitting is having an effect. And because of that it's clear that drawing a connection between this shooting and those folks is very reasonable. And if they don't like being high on the "what drove him to do this list" they can go fuck themselves, because they have only themselves to blame.
Which is connected to my next point. I don't think the gun question as it's been presented in this thread is quite on point. Not that I think there's nothing to debate there, but I think the broad question of whether we should have guns at all is more philisophical than practical at this time. (I mean obviously if we had no guns whatsoever this couldn't have happened, but I think that debate involves principles too broad to be very helpful here, or something.)
BUT I do think there's a point to made about our (their) attitude towards guns. Everyone who's handeled a gun (and probably everyone who's heard of guns) knows about the basic gun safety rules, right? (
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/tp/Gun-Safety-Rules.htm) Here's an example. Very focused on respecting that fact that a gun is in fact a dangerous thing, no?
See anything in there along the lines of "Make sure to wave your gun around like a fag as much as possible when running for office" or "Veiled references to shooting your opponents is a fun way to run a political campaign!" or "Everyone knows that getting shot is a joke so remember to let people know that you're not afraid to use your gun to get what you want!" No? Me neither. That shit (which, as above, Palin and her ilk are guilty of) is childlish nonsense that undermines the idea of "responsible gun ownership" (which is possible, believe it or not) and helps create a climate where this sort of thing is more likely to happen.
So I'd say the more directly relevent question is not whether "no guns" is always and necessarily best, but whether, if we're going to have guns, we should turn them into toys to be used in some idiot political game.
Thief13x on 9/1/2011 at 17:27
Somehow I doubt this guy was motivated by anyone but himself - (see his youtube page). I can't really see him as much of a Palin fan after reading some of the stuff he wrote.
Also, I'd like to thank dethtoll for making us aware of this news that we would've otherwise undoubtedly missed.
Kolya on 9/1/2011 at 17:32
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Hey, question? Why did you choose the nick AR Master anyway?
:D When was the last time you played System Shock 2 Sulphur?
june gloom on 9/1/2011 at 17:57
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
dethtoll - I know that this is one of the arguments that pro-gun people use - that if you don't have a gun and the criminal does then you're at a disadvantage. Of course. And don't get me wrong; if I lived in the USA I'd have lots of guns, at least one of each type (probably more) with a couple of hidden guns in various rooms in the house. I'd also carry a concealed weapon/gun.
This is completely unhinged and unnecessary, and I'm not sure if you're just making fun of me/the US/etc. or if you're completely serious. If you lived out in the country, I imagine you'd want to keep a rifle for the random coyote or wolf or whathaveyou that encroached on your property and won't go leave your animals/children alone. If you lived in a poor neighborhood, you'd probably keep a pistol for self-defense. But in most places, having a gun in the home is not necessary at all, and guess what?
Most people don't have one because they don't perceive a need. Having a gun in the US is often a very personal choice for civilians (by which I mean, people who've never been in the armed forces or served as a police officer- basically your average person who would never be put into a situation in the course of their job where they would need a gun), one that can be difficult to make thanks to the sheer controversy of it, and most do it in the name of defending their homes and families
just in case. Most guns owned by criminals, legal and illegal, tend to come from family and friends, with much of the rest coming from theft, the black market, and the drug trade (a lot of guns are illegally smuggled in from Mexico.)
Starrfall is completely on the money when it comes to what to do with the gun situation. Despite what you may think, just making guns illegal isn't going to make them disappear. We're rapidly approaching a 1:1 ratio of guns per person, and there's simply no way of getting rid of them all, and nobody sensible wants to try it. We need to make changes to gun culture, instead. It would be prudent to stop playing political football with guns, and that includes making asinine first posts in response to a thread about a tragic shooting. ;)
Also, Thief13x, go eat a bag of dicks. That's right, the whole bag. This was all over the news yesterday, I'm surprised there wasn't a thread sooner.
Queue on 9/1/2011 at 17:59
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Hey, question? Why did you choose the nick AR Master anyway?
"Ass Ream"?
AR Master on 9/1/2011 at 18:02
the ownage.... its off the charts.... no... n-no....
how can i show my face at sunday school again
Queue on 9/1/2011 at 18:05
Catholic? Oh shit...sorry about that... I meant "Ass Reamed".
Thief13x on 9/1/2011 at 18:20
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Also, Thief13x, go eat a bag of dicks. That's right, the whole bag. This was all over the news yesterday, I'm surprised there wasn't a thread sooner.
Why don't you show me how
SubJeff on 9/1/2011 at 18:32
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Despite what you may think, just making guns illegal isn't going to make them disappear.
Oh, I know it's not a simple problem to fix and I never said I did. I'm just disappointed at the gun culture in the USA because whatever you may believe it facilitates people being shot by nutters. It's not the cause - anyone can go batshit insane with a knife - but it's just so easy to pull a trigger.
And I am totally serious about having guns if I lived in the USA. The day someone breaks in with a loaded gun is the day you think to yourself "Wtf was I thinking not having a gun?". Same thing applies to the number of weapons I own now. Most people I know have had some experience with burglars and that time a guy tried to climb in my window (which I posted about here, before your time I think) I was glad to have a weapon with me.
Sulphur on 9/1/2011 at 18:34
Quote Posted by Kolya
:D When was the last time you played System Shock 2 Sulphur?
A long time ago, but that's the reason why I asked. :)
