Nameless Voice on 9/3/2021 at 12:38
Seems a bit unfair to complain about people focusing on Slack and Discord when those were the only things you had mentioned in your post at the time I read it - you later edited it to add reference to other software while I was replying. I don't know about others, but I at least never saw those until you drew attention back to them later.
At a glance, the channel sub-topics in Zulip look interesting.
Anyway, Discord has no message limit. That's only the free version of Slack that has the 10,000 message limit (which you can run through very fast with a few users.)
TTLG is especially bad for viewing on a phone, but a big reason for that is that there's no good mobile theme / version.
I think a lot of the problems you're talking about with it being a forum is just because the UI is so old-fashioned and clunky. A similar concept with more modern web technologies and a proper mobile version would go a long way towards making it feel less Jurassic.
froghawk on 9/3/2021 at 13:29
All I can say is, in my experience with another long-running forum converting to chat format - it's MUCH more personal. You get to know people as individuals a whole lot faster and deeper than you do on forums, because it's much more like a real conversation, and I think that's really valuable. The forum format is vastly inferior for making real human connections, which imo is supposed to be the point of having a community. No amount of QOL updates are going to remove the basic deficiencies of the format.
Starker on 9/3/2021 at 13:42
Quote Posted by raph
still alive, to quote a famous AI ;)
Aha, but are you doing science, though?
Thirith on 9/3/2021 at 14:32
Quote Posted by froghawk
All I can say is, in my experience with another long-running forum converting to chat format - it's MUCH more personal. You get to know people as individuals a whole lot faster and deeper than you do on forums, because it's much more like a real conversation, and I think that's really valuable. The forum format is vastly inferior for making real human connections, which imo is supposed to be the point of having a community. No amount of QOL updates are going to remove the basic deficiencies of the format.
I'd take issue with this as an absolute truth. I've been on forums that resulted real human connections, in friendships, marriages etc., and others that didn't. I think it's more that certain formats work better for certain kinds of personalities. Everything that henke wrote earlier in the thread holds true for me, for instance. What might pull in some people and facilitate the making of real human connections makes others anxious and likely to withdraw. I definitely believe that chat formats work better for some people and for some kinds of conversations, but it's a very individual thing.
heywood on 9/3/2021 at 14:47
If you want to know why there aren't a lot of new people coming here, it's because at its core, TTLG is a site dedicated to imm sim PC games from the late 1990s and their legacy. Obviously, we talk about other games and off-topic stuff too, but that's not what brings people here. I think most people find out about TTLG because they develop an interest in the games. It's an inherently limited audience.
Likewise, I suspect the number one reason why people drift away from this site is that they lose interest in the games. We have a few that continue to visit just for Comm Chat, but not everybody can be like Tocky.
Facebook is pretty much a one-stop shop for keeping up with all your friends and family. TTLG could never be that, no matter what software platform it's running on. But Facebook is a feed. For most users, it's a stream of consciousness. Posts fly by and if it's not fresh it's not worth commenting on because nobody is going to see it. Some Facebook groups move slower and can support a little bit of discussion. I have no idea whether the Nuthaus is one of them because I'm not on Facebook. But Facebook is basically fleeting by design. Photos are the only content that really sticks around. TTLG, on the other hand, isn't very good at being a feed, but it's a good place for discussion. And it's persistent. It's a trove.
I very much prefer the non real-time nature of forums. Chat requires a commitment to be online, and I already spend too much time chatting for work, now that people are splitting their time between home and office. I don't want to keep up with a feed either. When life gets busy, I sometimes go a few weeks between visits here. When I'm back it's easy to catch up with things I missed. Maybe not in the megathreads, but I don't really need to see what I missed there anyway.
Could there be some improvements here? Sure, of course. I certainly have my wishes. But we're limited by the vBulletin software, and I don't think it would be worth the effort and money to change platforms at this point.
Dia on 9/3/2021 at 15:20
Quote Posted by PigLick
for us oldies its like a warm gentler place to come to
Exactly why I visit every day.
Quote Posted by PigLick
And also you really only mentioned 4 people there, probably the most prominent posters from the "golden era" of comm chat, except for shug cos he is a real dick. But lets save a soft spot for others, like ARmaster, Monkeysee(wtf happened to him?) Stitch666(natch), and of course Nighthawk, and the evervescant Warm Jazz.
Sorry, my memory isn't what it used to be and those four were the only names that popped up while I was posting. It's hell getting old. I never had any problems with Shug or most of the kids here. There were only two older members with whom I had issues (because he & she were total dickwads), but it seems so long ago & I can't remember their nicks, only that he was the first (of just a few) whom I chose to 'ignore' (his nick was In-something, something & I've totally forgotten hers, only that she was a moderator on the Thief forums at EM and I wanted to stab her with a sharp, pointy object).
P.S. Nice hat, Piggy. :cheeky:
Kolya on 9/3/2021 at 17:46
Quote Posted by heywood
I don't think it would be worth the effort and money to change platforms at this point.
Money is an interesting point. Personally I'd be willing to pay a monthly fee for this place to get renovated one way or another and get a new chance as an independent gamer platform. Say $5/month.
A lot of plans would be imaginable and most have been tested out elsewhere (voluntary donations, time trial, freemium, hard and soft paywalls, etc). Anyway, what do you think about that?
Yakoob on 9/3/2021 at 17:54
+1 to keeping TTLG a forum, its the last one I still check frequently and I'm glad its still around.
I prefer the threaded discussion style an async nature of it. I check TTLG when its convenient for me, not when I get a notification. With chat apps, sometimes you get 300 messages in an hour and good luck trying to catch up. Worse yet if you want to reference something said an hour ago when the "stream of conversation" moved on. You're either there at the right time/all the time, or you're not part of the conversation. Forums don't require such a commitment.
Put another way: im already in like 15 discords I never check becsuse it requires too much time. I don't need a 16th.
froghawk on 9/3/2021 at 19:13
Quote Posted by Thirith
I'd take issue with this as an absolute truth. I've been on forums that resulted real human connections, in friendships, marriages etc., and others that didn't. I think it's more that certain formats work better for certain kinds of personalities. Everything that henke wrote earlier in the thread holds true for me, for instance. What might pull in some people and facilitate the making of real human connections makes others anxious and likely to withdraw. I definitely believe that chat formats work better for some people and for some kinds of conversations, but it's a very individual thing.
Hence why I said 'in my experience'. However, I learned more about the people in the TTLG discord in about 30 minutes than I'd learned about them after 16 years on this board. There's more space to ask personal questions of people and learn about their backgrounds. I think it helps that there are far less active users, too - you can get in deeper with a few people instead of being lost in a sea of faceless usernames. It's easy to miss a lot of stuff people share on such a big board with so many users, too. Whether that is what you want or are most comfortable with is a different question. 'Some kinds of conversations' is really the core of it - each has its advantages, but at this point, on a board with such old games, I'm more here to get to know people than to talk about the games. I haven't booted up a looking glass classic in ages.
heywood on 10/3/2021 at 02:39
People continue to visit for different reasons. Some people are here just for the games, some are here just for the community and socializing, and most of us are somewhere in between.
I don't have much free time for gaming anymore aside from Wii games with my kids, and I have other hobbies that don't get enough attention as well. Also, I suspect the majority of my posts in recent years are in Comm Chat. But if Comm Chat went away tomorrow, I'd still visit, just less often. Whereas if all the game forums died, I would probably move on. So I guess you could conclude I'm here for the games. But that's mainly because I don't have real friendships with people here. I enjoy talking to most of you, nearly all actually, with just a few exceptions, but I don't feel like I really know people.
Although I've been here for almost 20 years, I spent the first 7 or 8 years exclusively in the game forums. I rarely ever bothered to check the community forums when I joined, and Comm Chat seemed like a club full of snark that wasn't worth penetrating. I kind of regret that, because once I actually did meet some TTLG members IRL, I found them to be good people I'd enjoy getting to know and hanging out with. Unfortunately, right around the time I was opening myself up to getting to know the people here, they were leaving. And shortly after, I had kids and all my traveling came to a stop.
I'm somewhat extroverted in the flesh and love face to face interaction with people, but I'm somewhat introverted in the virtual world. I'm one of those people who tries to meet and talk to everyone at a party or gathering, but I can't be counted on to keep up virtual friendships with most people I meet, because it takes time and I don't get the reward of in-person interaction. I totally understand that real-time online and chat-like communications make it much easier to have one on one or small group conversations and get to know people better, but I just don't want the burden of always being connected.
I would be happy to get to know you and many others here. But it seems like there is already an alternative way to do that, which is through Facebook and the Nuthaus group. With effort and money, TTLG could offer an alternative, but I don't think it would draw anyone back who has already left, so I'm not sure it's worth pursuing. Facebook offers your whole social life on one platform and we could never compete with that. It's unfortunate considering I'm a non-user and non-supporter of Facebook, which means I've excluded myself from a lot of potential FB friendships. But it is what it is.
Back to my point about platforms and moving TTLG to a different one... I think if you want people to share more about themselves, there has to be a friend system and filtering of content based on friendship. Otherwise, a lot of people are going to hesitate every time they go to share something that can be tied back to their real identity. vBulletin has friends, but friendship in that context doesn't mean anything. I don't know of any software that does forums well, but also handles semi-private sharing of content among "friends" like like the big social media platforms.
And to answer Koyla's question, it's not a matter of money for me at least. $5m/month is an order of magnitude less than my beer budget. But considering the number of active users here, it could be hard to fund a platform upgrade. It's been too long since I made a donation here, so I need to rectify that.