Esme on 21/10/2013 at 07:57
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
...Judge the game for what it is and as a standalone game
I'm quite happy to wait for my peers to tell me what they think of playing the game when it's released, however what I've seen so far shows a game I don't have much interest in playing much less paying AAA prices for, it looks like one of those nudge along movies at the moment, I might be wrong on that so I'll wait and see what people who play the originals as well as the new game think.
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
..not for what you think it should be, because nothing can compare to your nostalgia.
Nostalgia would be a longing for a bygone time or thing that is no longer available.
Most people here still play Thief (and it's 1000+ and still increasing fan missions), so it's not bygone to them, it's not some memory viewed through the rose tinted spectacles of time and fading memory, it's an active comparison between two effectively contemporary games.
OK the graphics are poor compared to more modern games but the gameplay is superior in many respects, and that's what I don't like in the new game.
You can sneer at that and call it nostalgia if you like, but if you do then make me a deal, come back and tell me about
this Thief game and how many people are still playing it compared to how many are still playing the originals, in ten years time.
I have a shiny penny says the originals will still be played and FM's will still be written for them.
jay pettitt on 21/10/2013 at 08:07
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Every post I read on this forum is "Why this thing that is different sucks" or "I wish this thing were more like the old thing".
If it bothers you so much, read some of the other posts.
Or, for a non silly response, I think maybe you're paying more attention to the negative posts than you are to the neutral and positive posts ~ by way of some common or garden cognitive bias. And if you'd like to see more of the positive points, you could always post more, rather than complaining about their perceived absence.
Shinrazero on 21/10/2013 at 08:41
Good, bad, I love the spectrum. Regardless of what our opinions are, we are unified in the agreement that Thief series is pretty damn cool.
Gaestle on 21/10/2013 at 09:07
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
... [long post] ...
I see it in a similar way.
But I also think, even in the critics is something positive. If people complain about small things and side aspects but not general things at all (e.g. setting, visual style, etc.), than they obviously accept these general things. So maybe for developers is more important what has not been complained about (first try to have something like ... grammar here :rolleyes: ).
And I'm convinced people are usually more active to communicate what they don't like instead to repeat several thousand other users about what they like.
And I think at this time standard users/consumers haven't commented the game so much yet. But these standard users/consumers are probably the majority of sales.
Personally I hope THIEF will be an success. Because only then we all have a chance to get more of this style of playing in an "medieval like" setting and without nightvision goggles.
NIB on 21/10/2013 at 12:23
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
Contextual jumping, leaning, and rope arrows are utterly miniscule issues in the larger scope of gameplay, and I don't really get why people are flipping out about them. How often do you find yourself hopping through the levels? Or leaning back and forth randomly while walking? Considering the new game will likely be employing a sort of "Metroidvania" style progression like Tomb Raider did, it's probably pretty necessary for them to gate off how and where you can use rope arrows, so that you won't be able to just constantly sequence break with them. I don't think it's going to destroy the game because rope arrows are a little bit less useful. I don't think it's going to destroy the game that you can't lean at will, because how often do you lean other than when you're looking around a corner anyway? Honestly? And I don't really think a game has to feature the ability to constantly jump everywhere to be good. There are plenty of great games where jumping doesn't even exist. I don't think it will inhibit your ability to explore because you won't be able to jump on very obviously placed crates etc.
Free movement is - to me - one of the pillars of the original Thief games. Jumping, climbing and finding new paths always was an important and fun part of their challenge.
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
Judge the game for what it is and as a standalone game, not for what you think it should be, because nothing can compare to your nostalgia.
But this obviously isn't a game that wants to stand on its own. It is developed as part of a popular series and for that matter it has of course to compete against its predecessors.
If i would go and see a Beatles tribute Band i sure as hell would judge them on how well they manage to replicated the music and style of the Beatles.
jay pettitt on 21/10/2013 at 12:24
Quote Posted by Gaestle
And I think at this time standard users/consumers haven't commented the game so much yet. But these standard users/consumers are probably the majority of sales.
I suppose the danger for Eidos Montreal is that as the grumbly old school fandom parade their ruffled feathers all over internet town, then it (
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jcc4.12009/abstract) may lead to an increase in strongly polarized perceptions amongst 'standard' consumers too ~ regardless of whether the grumbly points are valid or not.
Dia on 21/10/2013 at 12:27
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
The response to this game in this community was atrociously negative before anyone knew even a single detail about the game other than that it would exist. The perception of
anything new on these forums is immediately that it's going to be horrible. Everyone here is wildly pessimistic about something that they haven't even played yet.
That statement is
so not true. Go back and read the initial reactions in this forum to the announcement of T4; really read the initial dialogue we Taffers had with EM's CM back then. We were all pretty much excited at the prospect of another Thief game and our relationship with EM's CM was positive and (we thought) productive. The negativity didn't start until EM announced their T4 was going to be a reboot and started releasing details of the development of the game. As far as being pessimistic about a game we haven't played yet; haven't you ever seen a preview of a movie and decided that it didn't look/sound like your cup of tea? That's what's happening here: some Thief fans are not liking EM's previews of T4. For some of us the game is falling short of the mark of what we believe would be a true Thief game. Please note that I said 'some of us'; which contradicts your statement 'Everyone here is wildly pessimistic about something that they haven't even played yet'. It almost sounds as though you've gone out of your way to ignore all the positive responses to T4 from Taffers here at TTLG.
jay pettitt on 21/10/2013 at 12:32
Quote Posted by NIB
Free movement is - to me - one of the pillars of the original Thief games. Jumping, climbing and finding new paths always was an important and fun part of their challenge.
Sure. But right now, neither you or I have any idea what degree of freedom for moving around T4 will afford. We know some stuff is different to the Looking Glass era games. But we don't know whether
the net effect of all the changes is more freedom or less or much the same. Highlighting one or two points and assuming the worst perhaps says more about you than it does about the actual game.
Now like you, Jay is kinda expecting the game not really to be great in that regard, mostly I suppose because that's the way that games seem to be going these days ((
http://www.dishonored.com/) except for when they don't), so when I hear about the rope arrows or whatever, I guess that reinforces my opinion about games these days and builds expectations that T4 will suck. But it might just be that Eidos Montreal are doing a good job at making a game that feels and plays great in that respect.
Vae on 21/10/2013 at 12:50
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
Every post I read on this forum is "Why this thing that is different sucks"...
I know what you mean...It's a shame so many people have been let down by EM, due to their misguided choices...and I'm happy to report the fans have done an excellent job explaining why.
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...or "I wish this thing were more like the old thing".
Amazingly enough, it is true that the THIEF community would actually like to play a THIEF game...and the good news is, most of us welcome new features and ideas that expand harmoniously with its core design.
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Changing actors is something that happens nearly constantly, in animation, video games, tv shows, and even movies. It's not worth trashing the game over, even if you don't agree with their reasoning.
No one has trashed the game simply because EM decided to reject Stephen Russell and replace him with an inferior voice actor...
that was only one of many blunders...which will collectively result in a severely compromised THIEF game....and it's not a matter of "agreeing with their reasoning"...
it's a matter of understanding the reason EM gave was false...which just makes their company look really bad, when they insult the intelligence of industry professionals and enthusiasts that know better.
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People love RPG advancement, myself included.
In some designs, it works...just not for a THIEF game, because it is incongruent with its core design principals...Just like in general I prefer a first-person perceptive, but not for a Diablo game, because that would take away from that unique experience.
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I don't think it ruins Garrett's character to have him be able to hone his skills in some way. Then again, I always preferred System Shock and Deus Ex to Thief, too
There you go again...looking at features just as "stuff that I like", arbitrarily valued in a preference bubble...rather than looking at how features and aspects affect each other in a dynamic matrix, in order to determine their value in that unique context.
The folly of the novice, is to think that a feature exists in a vacuum, transferable to any core without qualitative consequence...Therefore the ignorant novice would mistakenly think "I like this feature = This feature is good anywhere"...and..."Hey, how come people are complaining about this feature? = Those people must not like this feature"
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I just don't think a reboot should just be a retexturing of the original game.
Either does anyone else.
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Contextual jumping, leaning, and rope arrows are utterly miniscule issues in the larger scope of gameplay, and I don't really get why people are flipping out about them.
That's because you don't understand the value of granular freedom and the possible creative applications, that are now lost.
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How often do you find yourself hopping through the levels?
How often do you parrot EM's mindless propaganda?
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Or leaning back and forth randomly while walking?
Or having your mind captured in a nonsensical loop...without any creative intelligence at your disposal?
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I don't think it's going to destroy the game because rope arrows are a little bit less useful.
They're going to be a lot less useful...relegated to nothing more than prescribed paths without emergent possibilities...The Climbing Gloves in TDS will have more free-roaming exploratory value than NuRope.
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I don't think it's going to destroy the game that you can't lean at will, because how often do you lean other than when you're looking around a corner anyway? Honestly?
Only when one wants to blackjack, pick-pocket, look around visual obstructions without being next to them, leaned bow-shots, leaning forward to look down below, etc...You know, adding the nuance, depth, and freedom to gameplay that THIEF is known for.
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And I don't really think a game has to feature the ability to constantly jump everywhere to be good.
It all depends on what game you're talking about...In a THIEF game, the ability to free-jump is paramount.
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The light gem? Seriously? That's considered a valid complaint? Why does it need more than 3 stages? It's not like it wasn't already painfully obvious when you were hidden/somewhat hidden/visible with the original gem, I fail to see how simplifying that very slightly is GOING TO UTTERLY RUIN THE GAME OMG.
A significantly lower-fidelity visibility system, will eliminate the deeply immersive, granular cross-feedback...leaving a shallow, explicit indicator...making a mockery of a hallmark feature, quintessential to the THIEF experience.
New Horizon on 21/10/2013 at 14:13
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
I don't think...I fail to see... and I don't really get...I just don't think...
That's all I'm going to say about that.
