Another CM Bites the Dust

The Shroud on 7/11/2013 at 00:03

Quote Posted by ZylonBane

Well it's supposed to discourage you from bloviating and put some effort into expressing your weird arguments at least succinctly, but it seems you haven't connected that particular pair of dots just yet.

Clearly I did connect that particular pair of dots:

Quote Posted by The Shroud

And ZB, just because I may write more to back up my arguments than you care to read

As in, I can tell you think I'm long-winded and don't want to read everything I write. So no, I'm not stupid, I get it. That doesn't mean rude comments like that are justified, or an effective means of getting someone to make more succinct arguments.

I don't bloviate. I may type a lot, but what I type is not empty or pointless. Rude comments, on the other hand, are pointless. If you're going to join into this discussion, try doing it respectfully like (most of) the rest of us have been. That's a far more effective means of getting whatever points you may have across than your snide jabbing and name-calling.

Quote Posted by Starker

The light gem is not just for confirmation, it provides constant feedback. It's there to tell you not only how visible you are, but also how exactly (e.g. how fast) the visibility state changes. It gives you a good sense of how the mechanic works and how much leeway you have.

For example, without knowing how the visibility changes the player cannot accurately predict how much more visible they will be while standing up as opposed to crouching. Or let's say the player wants to shoot a light out with a water arrow. Will the guard see them or not if they equip the bow? With a light gem they get instant feedback on how the visibility changes.

Okay, that's a fair point. But still, if the absence of the light gem were implemented only in Expert mode, then presumably the player has already developed a good sense of how much of a difference standing up or drawing a weapon makes in their visibility by the time they play on Expert, based on their previous gameplay experiences.

Another important thing to consider is the psychology of someone who's attempting to remain unseen without a visibility indicator. If you're crouching in the shadows without a light gem and a guard turns to look in your general direction, you're going to experience a brief moment of anxiety as you hold still, waiting to see whether the guard notices you or carries on with his watch. That anxiety is a good thing, it drives the tension and adds suspense to the gameplay.

With the light gem, you lose some of that because you know for certain that there is absolutely no way the guard will see you if the gem is dark. Consequently, you're not going to be tense and holding your breath, because the light gem will have alleviated your fears of being seen. And if the light gem isn't dark enough, you'll already know without a shadow of a doubt (sorry, couldn't resist) that you're visible to the guard -- so once again, that potential for anxiety and suspense is replaced by calm certainty.

Now factor in the point you raised about standing up or drawing a weapon increasing your visibility. As you said, with a light gem, you'll know precisely how close you are to detection and thus know what you can get away with and what you can't -- meaning the choice of whether to stand up or draw your bow is virtually a no-brainer; either the light gem is already bordering on too much visibility and you shouldn't do it, or the gem is dark enough that you know it's safe to do it. A potentially suspenseful and challenging decision-point in your gameplay experience is thereby reduced to simple math.

Now consider the same scenario without the light gem at your disposal. You're crouched in the shadows, the guard has turned to look in your direction, but it's obvious from his body language and lack of reaction that he hasn't noticed you yet. However, these shadows aren't exactly pitch-dark, you're closer to the guard than you'd prefer to be, and it's quite possible that if you stand up or draw your bow, he might notice you.

Are you going to risk it? That's up to you. You have to gauge your chances of staying unseen while doing those sorts of actions, and count on your instincts. Maybe you'll decide to chance it and maybe you'll get away with it, or perhaps you'll play it safe and wait for the guard to look away. There's a lot of potential for exciting gameplay there because of that slight uncertainty -- uncertainty which will inevitably decrease more and more as you gain more experience playing the game, but that learning curve will also be rewarding as the precision of your judgment and your confidence increase.

Quote Posted by Chade

I suspect that not having any sort of on-screen indicator would be harder with modern graphics then it would have been 15 years ago. Nowadays you often have complicated shadow patterns coming off trees, lattices, fences, etc, with many different light levels in different parts of the space you are standing.

That's true. And I think the player would likewise have to take that into account when choosing where to move and hide. Again, this all goes back to the player's ability to visualize themselves standing or crouching in a given space, and determining from that mental image whether it's a wise position in which to place themselves. Personally, I'd naturally gravitate toward broader, denser areas of shadow where I could obscure my whole body rather than areas speckled or gridded with patches of light and shadow, but I imagine there'd be times when my options would be limited and I'd have to take what I could get.

The level design would need to do a good job of incorporating both cover to hide behind (which may not necessarily always be in shadowy areas) and dark shadows (which may not necessarily always be behind cover). The player would have to alternate from time to time in choosing to hide in shadows or behind cover, and various combinations of both -- no single hiding place would necessarily conceal the player from all possible observers all of the time. They'd have to select their concealment on a case by case basis and maneuver to different cover regularly as guard positions changed. But that's what makes stealth gameplay so engaging anyway, so I don't think that's a bad thing.

Quote Posted by Chade

I have always enjoyed pushing the stealth engine in the past (it's quite amazing how much you can get away with), and I can't imagine doing that without the light gem. Perhaps, if the devs were very careful about how they lit the world, it might make for a tenser and more immersive experience, and this might outweigh the downsides. Perhaps. I'm skeptical, but I'd be interested to see it in action.

Agreed.

Quote Posted by jtbalogh

Was this discussion about a non-light gem to convince Eidos in Thief 4?
Or was there a particular mod to patch in the old games?
Distributing the feature to players would have to be considered too.

I think it's too late for Thief 4. EM is going to do whatever they're planning to do and I highly doubt any of us can affect the direction of that course at this point (if we ever could to begin with). As for the existing Thief games, there was a way to disable the light gem in TDP and TMA (I don't remember how, it's been quite a long time since I tried it). It might have just been changing the FOV, I've forgotten exactly. Maybe someone else will remember.

Quote Posted by jtbalogh

As for me looking at my feet and body all the time to see darkness as an indicator? I will be sticking with mostly looking forward at the larger world and a light gem. Later, I could consider no light gem after monitors provide a larger peripheral vision or controls can shadow eye movements a lot faster.

I imagine Thief would be the sort of game that the Oculus Rift could really add a lot of immersion to. I'd love to have complete peripheral vision for stealth gameplay, that would be fantastic.

Quote Posted by jtbalogh

I would say complementary feedback, not redundant feedback. The choice to sometimes look down, or sometimes look forward. Looking at only the feet and body constantly for hours and hours in the 15 mission campaign is probably a tedious mechanic.

I don't actually think a player would have to keep looking down at their body all the time to see whether shadows are dark enough. As I said, in TDP and TMA, Garrett has no visible in-game body and it's possible to ghost through those games with the light gem disabled. Being able to look down and see shadows covering your legs and feet would be a nice help when you're not quite sure how much of you is hidden, but I don't think you'd have to constantly do that throughout the entire game. I think you'd most likely get the hang of hiding in shadows after a while and it would become instinctive.

Quote Posted by New Horizon

If the gem were simply a representation of light hitting you then a lot of these arguments against it would be rather cut and dry, however it's a little more involved than just that. It's a 'visibility gem'. It tells you how much your visibility is affected by movement, the weapons you hold, whether you are crouched, and in TDM the level of ambient light too.

That's a good point (basically the same point Starker made). But as I said above, those actions (moving, crouching, standing up, drawing weapons, etc) are also things that the player learns to gauge in terms of their effects on their visibility, not just from watching the light gem but from the reactions of guards and other AI to their movements.

What you need to bear in mind is that both learning from watching the light gem and learning from sneaking without a light gem involve trial and error. The light gem does not replace trial and error, it merely conveys it. When the player does something that causes a guard to see them, the light gem glows brighter and the guard reacts. The player learns to associate their actions with both the gem's brightness and the guard's reaction. Both the gem going bright and the guard noticing them convey error on the player's part -- and the player in turn learns to avoid repeating whatever action caused them to be noticed. Removing the light gem just means that they learn from AI reactions instead of from a visibility meter, in the exact same way that they learn making too much noise alerts nearby guards.

Starker on 7/11/2013 at 01:13

The uncertainty caused by the absence of the light gem is not necessarily going to lead to a more exciting gameplay. The light gem allows you to skirt along an edge, make informed decisions and engage the enemies on your own terms. The trial and error that's caused by forcing the player to guess the visibility would ruin the excitement more often than not. Instead of hiding in a shadow and holding your breath you will get "whoops, seen, reload". You can't skirt along the edge when you don't have a good enough idea where the edge is.

It should also be noted that the light gem is not absolutely precise. It allows the player to make accurate predictions, but it's not foolproof -- these predictions can still be wrong. Light levels, movement, position, multiple enemies, level geometry... there are a lot of factors that can considerably ramp up the complexity.

Finally, keeping the player constantly on edge is disastrous for pacing. The light gem gives you relatively safe havens in the middle of a dangerous territory to recuperate before facing the danger again. You need to bring the player down before you ramp the tension up again -- that's pacing 101.

ZylonBane on 7/11/2013 at 06:14

Quote Posted by The Shroud

Are you going to risk it? That's up to you. You have to gauge your chances of staying unseen while doing those sorts of actions, and count on your instincts. Maybe you'll decide to chance it and maybe you'll get away with it, or perhaps you'll play it safe and wait for the guard to look away. There's a lot of potential for exciting gameplay there because of that slight uncertainty

No, there's a lot of potential for screaming "BULLSHIT!" and hitting the quickload key. Ambiguous presentation of a core system is a guaranteed recipe for player frustration. Saying a light gem reduces the player's decision-making to simple math is nonsensical, because a) Thief is an action game, meaning that even with perfect information the player is still constrained by their ability to act on it, and b) as already noted, the light gem doesn't provide perfect situational information.

So stop being ridiculous.

SubJeff on 7/11/2013 at 07:52

Quote Posted by Chade

That sums up two of the five statements in my previous post, yes. Your point?

That all your posts can be summed up that way.

I'm starting to think you are a bot.

Chade on 7/11/2013 at 21:38

Firstly: no they can't. Not even the post you responded to can be summed up that way.

Secondly: when arguing about things we haven't experienced, like we do here, uncertainty is appropriate most of the time.

Finally: Mr "that's how I roll, boo ya!" is lecturing me on appropriate levels of confidence? Wonders never cease!

The Shroud on 7/11/2013 at 22:52

Quote Posted by Starker

The uncertainty caused by the absence of the light gem is not necessarily going to lead to a more exciting gameplay.

The main difficulty I'm having in arguing the points I am is that for you and most other Thief players, the whole concept of playing Thief without the visibility gem is something theoretical and untested, where as for me and anyone else who has played with the gem disabled, it's already been done. I think the fact that you can't mentally disassociate Thief gameplay from playing with the visibility gem is biasing your visualizations and expectations of what it would be like. Your first inclination is to presume that it couldn't work due to X, Y, and Z, but the reality is that the problems you're envisioning aren't nearly as daunting or game-breaking as you imagine them to be.

To illustrate this, consider the other major challenge in Thief -- moving unheard. There is no "audibility" meter or the like in Thief, the player simply relies on listening to the sounds of their own footsteps to gauge how much noise they're making. And the only way to get a good grasp of just how much noise you can get away with without being heard is trial and error. Until the player actually screws up and alerts a guard with their footsteps, the exact threshold or "edge" of detection -- i.e. the minimum distance from a listener at X alertness-state required and the maximum speed of movement on Y surface-type possible without being heard by said listener -- is unknown.

There. There's your trial-and-error system, plain as day, already integrated and functional in the game. We don't even bother thinking about it because it's so basic and natural. It's intuitive and it works. But imagine if the game had been different -- imagine if Thief had had an audibility meter like the visibility gem to give constant, concrete, measurable feedback to the player on just how much noise they were making at each given moment, with a gradated scale that accounted for a number of factors like movement speed, surface type, whether or not the player is crouching, jumping, etc, etc.

And then imagine that someone like me came along after years of your having played with and relied upon that system, and started saying, "Hey, what if we just removed the audibility meter altogether and relied purely on our own hearing and judgment to remain undetected?" You'd all be saying that wouldn't work due to X, Y, and Z, that the player needs a reliable indicator to tell them how close they are to being overheard, denouncing trial and error as too frustrating for the player, and all of the other same hypothesis-based arguments you're making now against removing the visibility gem. The only reason you are so convinced it can't possibly work is because you're used to having a visibility gem and your imagination is biased by that system.

Quote Posted by Starker

The light gem allows you to skirt along an edge, make informed decisions and engage the enemies on your own terms.

Sure it does, once you've already learned where that edge is from trial and error.

Quote Posted by Starker

The trial and error that's caused by forcing the player to guess the visibility would ruin the excitement more often than not.

No, it wouldn't ruin the excitement any more than the trial and error that's caused by forcing the player to guess their audibility.

Quote Posted by Starker

Instead of hiding in a shadow and holding your breath you will get "whoops, seen, reload".

And how is that any different from the, "Whoops, heard, reload" screwups that already happen in Thief? Clearly those didn't ruin your fun or frustrate you enough to give up on playing.

Quote Posted by Starker

You can't skirt along the edge when you don't have a good enough idea where the edge is.

No one knows at the very beginning of playing the game where that edge is, visibility gem or no visibility gem. Trial and error teaches you where that edge is over time, and you memorize it. From then on, all the visibility gem does is convey what you have already learned based on screwing up and being detected so many times in so many different ways.

It's not the gem that's telling you you're too visible, it's your memories compiled from hours of micro trial-and-error processes forming your instincts of how much visibility is too much. Each shade of darkness in the gem is meaningless without your corresponding experiences of being seen or not being seen at those different shades while doing different things at various distances from observers. Your eyes and your experience-informed instincts can gauge everything that the gem does, and do it just as effectively.

Quote Posted by Starker

It should also be noted that the light gem is not absolutely precise. It allows the player to make accurate predictions, but it's not foolproof -- these predictions can still be wrong. Light levels, movement, position, multiple enemies, level geometry... there are a lot of factors that can considerably ramp up the complexity.

Yes...just like your own judgment will never be absolutely precise. It too allows you to make accurate predictions, but is not foolproof. Your judgment is informed by all the data you acquire and unconsciously internalize as you play the game. There is no replacement for player-judgment, but player-judgment can replace artificial indicators like the visibility gem in the same way that it serves in place of an audibility meter when attempting to move unheard.

Quote Posted by Starker

Finally, keeping the player constantly on edge is disastrous for pacing.

I could not disagree with you more. Keeping the player constantly on edge is what drives the excitement of trying to stay hidden. It changes the whole experience from simply going through the motions without fear or nervousness into something suspenseful and thrilling. If anything, it enforces the intended pacing of the game -- you need to have patience, take your time, exercise caution, and react quickly and intelligently to your enemies' movements. A palpable sense of danger and risk actually drives cautiousness and slower pacing -- just as when the player is trying to move quietly past a guard, hoping with an intense level of tension that they won't be heard.

Quote Posted by Starker

The light gem gives you relatively safe havens in the middle of a dangerous territory to recuperate before facing the danger again. You need to bring the player down before you ramp the tension up again -- that's pacing 101.

Good hiding places are what provide you with safe havens in the middle of a dangerous territory, not the visibility gem. Hiding behind a stack of crates or in deep shadows lets you recuperate before sneaking to your next chosen concealment -- you don't need a visibility gem to tell you you're safely hidden when you're plainly not in anyone's line of sight or in such dark surroundings that you're a featureless shadow to anyone looking at you. Removing the invisibility gem doesn't remove your ability to catch your breath in a safe hiding place.

Quote Posted by ZylonBane

No, there's a lot of potential for screaming "BULLSHIT!" and hitting the quickload key. Ambiguous presentation of a core system is a guaranteed recipe for player frustration.

Yes. But what we disagree on is the player's visual estimate of their visibility being ambiguous. As I said above, the player has no indicator apart from their own hearing to tell how much noise they make, and determine whether that noise is quiet enough or too loud to remain unheard. But no one ever complained about that or shouted, "BULLSHIT!" and quit playing just because they had to rely on their senses. We all adapted to that system and found that sensory feedback and AI reactions to the noise we made were adequate indicators by which to judge our audibility. The same goes for our ability to visually gauge the darkness of shadows, our distance from observers, and how AI react to our movements within varying degrees of darkness.

Chade on 7/11/2013 at 23:06

The nice things about having analogue visibility and hearing mechanics is that, when the player gets it wrong, it's likely to initially be only a little bit wrong, and hopefully the player has time to adjust to their mistake before the situation gets too serious.

SubJeff on 7/11/2013 at 23:47

Quote Posted by Chade

Finally: Mr "that's how I roll, boo ya!" is lecturing me on appropriate levels of confidence? Wonders never cease!

What does this even mean?

I'm not lecturing on anything to do with confidence.

And if you'r referring to my post about game mechanics then yes that IS how I roll - with classification and logic. What has that got to do with confidence or lecturing you on anything? You think that was an expression of confidence? It was an expression of exclamation.

Starker on 8/11/2013 at 05:13

I haven't played Thief without the light gem, true, but I have played the Dark Mod, and I would argue that it's similar enough to Thief to count.

Sound is not a primary stealth mechanic in Thief, it's there to supplement it. Nevertheless, it is pretty hard to gauge just how much sound you are making -- you can't very well skirt along the edge of enemies' hearing. Removing the light gem would introduce the same kind of uncertainty. There were actually quite a few "That is bullshit! How did he hear me?" moments for me in Thief.

Pacing works not by ramping up the tension constantly, but by oscillating between tension and relief. The light gem allows the player a brief respite in a place of danger where they would be constantly on edge otherwise, in the middle of plain sight. This is different from a hiding place in deep shadows, which is a safe territory.

The Shroud on 8/11/2013 at 22:00

Quote Posted by Starker

I haven't played Thief without the light gem, true, but I have played the Dark Mod, and I would argue that it's similar enough to Thief to count.

I've played through TDP and TMA with the visibility gem disabled (haven't yet tried doing it in TDS, though I've heard it's possible to disable the gem in that game as well). I haven't yet played the Dark Mod, although I really intend to at some point. I take it you've played the Dark Mod with the visibility gem disabled? If so, are you saying that sneaking around in the Dark Mod without the gem is too difficult?

Quote Posted by Starker

Sound is not a primary stealth mechanic in Thief, it's there to supplement it.

I disagree, sound in Thief is every bit as much a stealth mechanic as visibility. Thief is unique in stealth gaming in that it put an extroardinary emphasis on the sound and the challenge of moving quietly, where as other games only focused on visuals and left out noise as a significant stealth mechanic.

Quote Posted by Starker

Nevertheless, it is pretty hard to gauge just how much sound you are making

No, it isn't. There is no ambiguity about how much noise you are making -- your ears tell you what your footsteps sound like and how loud they are. The only thing that's (initially) hard to gauge about the sounds you make is just how much noise it takes to alert someone at a given distance from them. It's not actually your noise that's difficult to gauge, it's AI hearing that you have to get a feel for. But even that doesn't take very long to get the hang of in Thief. If it did, the game would be broken, and obviously we know it isn't.

Quote Posted by Starker

you can't very well skirt along the edge of enemies' hearing.

Nonsense, of course you can. This is Thief we're talking about, skirting along the edge of enemies' hearing is what you do in the game. The player has to creep cautiously across noisy floors behind patrolling guards as early as the first mission of TDP. You can't tell me that sneaking just beneath the threshold of AI hearing isn't possible or integrated as a stealth mechanic in the game.

Quote Posted by Starker

Removing the light gem would introduce the same kind of uncertainty.

Yes. Exactly. And that would be a good thing, just like the uneasiness of trying to move quietly in Thief is a good thing.

Quote Posted by Starker

There were actually quite a few "That is bullshit! How did he hear me?" moments for me in Thief.

Really? That surprises me. I never experienced that. Whenever a guard heard me in Thief, it was always plainly obvious to me that I had made too much noise and should have been more careful. I never heard anyone complain about AI hearing in Thief being overly sensitive or too difficult to gauge.

Quote Posted by Starker

Pacing works not by ramping up the tension constantly, but by oscillating between tension and relief. The light gem allows the player a brief respite in a place of danger where they would be constantly on edge otherwise, in the middle of plain sight. This is different from a hiding place in deep shadows, which is a safe territory.

Why should the player feel completely safe in merely semi-dark shadows or anywhere that doesn't totally obscure them from view? That's entirely illogical. It doesn't make sense to feel completely safe unless you are completely safe, and realistically, most of the time you're only going to be semi-safe, not completely. Your degree of safety from being seen at any given moment is relative to the circumstances of that moment -- how dark your surroundings are, how close you are to observers, how much cover is between you and them, how alert they are, how fast you're moving. To be a thief constantly sneaking around, trying to avoid notice by everyone because being seen could very likely result in your death means always being a little on edge. And that's what makes stealth exciting in the first place.