ZylonBane on 6/11/2013 at 02:52
Quote Posted by The Shroud
I can understand that you disagree with my viewpoint and you've lost interest in debating the subject, but that's no reason to toss rude comments.
Well it's supposed to discourage you from bloviating and put some effort into expressing your weird arguments at least succinctly, but it seems you haven't connected that particular pair of dots just yet.
Starker on 6/11/2013 at 03:05
The light gem is not just for confirmation, it provides constant feedback. It's there to tell you not only how visible you are, but also how exactly (e.g. how fast) the visibility state changes. It gives you a good sense of how the mechanic works and how much leeway you have.
For example, without knowing how the visibility changes the player cannot accurately predict how much more visible they will be while standing up as opposed to crouching. Or let's say the player wants to shoot a light out with a water arrow. Will the guard see them or not if they equip the bow? With a light gem they get instant feedback on how the visibility changes.
Chade on 6/11/2013 at 03:59
I have no idea if it would be more or less intuitive then the light gem, but another option might be to fold the light gem into the darkness of other hub elements. This means you must always have at least one UI element on the screen at all times, but that's true of the light gem as well.
That's just a surface level change, though, not a big change like getting the player to rely on their judgement about how bright/dark their surroundings are.
I suspect that not having any sort of on-screen indicator would be harder with modern graphics then it would have been 15 years ago. Nowadays you often have complicated shadow patterns coming off trees, lattices, fences, etc, with many different light levels in different parts of the space you are standing.
I have always enjoyed pushing the stealth engine in the past (it's quite amazing how much you can get away with), and I can't imagine doing that without the light gem. Perhaps, if the devs were very careful about how they lit the world, it might make for a tenser and more immersive experience, and this might outweigh the downsides. Perhaps. I'm skeptical, but I'd be interested to see it in action.
SubJeff on 6/11/2013 at 06:29
Chade Mode: They could communicate how lit you are in another way but I've no idea if they could pull this of properly. Modern graphics can affect the approach devs take to existing gameplay design. I'm typing. The sky is blue. This is a fan forum
jtbalogh on 6/11/2013 at 07:08
Was this discussion about a non-light gem to convince Eidos in Thief 4?
Or was there a particular mod to patch in the old games?
Distributing the feature to players would have to be considered too.
As for me looking at my feet and body all the time to see darkness as an indicator? I will be sticking with mostly looking forward at the larger world and a light gem. Later, I could consider no light gem after monitors provide a larger peripheral vision or controls can shadow eye movements a lot faster.
Quote Posted by The Shroud
That intuitive relation between darkness of surroundings and level of visibility is what's really guiding the player whenever they attempt to conceal themselves in shadows. The light gem is only a confirmation after the player moves to an area of concealment that yes, they are in fact X degree invisible in whatever spot they've chosen to hide. But the player would already have determined that before deciding to move there in the first place. The moment the player understands that the darkness of shadows around them equals their degree of invisibility, the light gem becomes a
redundant form of feedback.
I would say complementary feedback, not redundant feedback. The choice to sometimes look down, or sometimes look forward. Looking at only the feet and body constantly for hours and hours in the 15 mission campaign is probably a tedious mechanic.
Chade on 6/11/2013 at 10:42
Quote Posted by NuEffect
Chade Mode: They could communicate how lit you are in another way but I've no idea if they could pull this of properly. Modern graphics can affect the approach devs take to existing gameplay design. I'm typing. The sky is blue. This is a fan forum
I'm jealous. :mad:
New Horizon on 6/11/2013 at 14:47
Quote Posted by Chade
I'm jealous. :mad:
If the gem were simply a representation of light hitting you then a lot of these arguments against it would be rather cut and dry, however it's a little more involved than just that. It's a 'visibility gem'. It tells you how much your visibility is affected by movement, the weapons you hold, whether you are crouched, and in TDM the level of ambient light too.
Chade on 6/11/2013 at 21:42
Yeah, you might end up removing some of that if you had no light gem.
Ambient light wouldn't pose any problems (in fact, without a light gem it's probably much easier if it affects your visibility). I'd be happy to get rid of weapon visibility modifiers. Movement modifiers? Not sure how I feel about getting rid of those. The crouch modifier I'd definitely want to keep unless play testing showed it was too confusing.
SubJeff on 6/11/2013 at 22:59
Noncommittal statement. Expression indicating lack of decision. Etc.
Chade on 6/11/2013 at 23:38
That sums up two of the five statements in my previous post, yes. Your point?
