The Shroud on 30/10/2013 at 23:07
Quote Posted by Hit Deity
A game has got to have a reliable means of conveying to the player how well hidden they are.
I agree. What I'm saying is,
if the game is designed properly, then the visual criteria of the player's surrounding environment -- the darkness of shadows and the visibility or obscurity of objects within those shadows -- can be a reliable means of conveying to the player how well hidden they are.
Quote Posted by Hit Deity
Too many (myself included) would just give up on the stealth aspect if you could never be sure you were hidden. Many games that have (failed to) used stealth over the years suffered big time because stealth was "broken" in some way like this. You just can't have players guessing all the time whether they're hidden or not.
But that's just it -- the players guessing whether they're hidden or not does not necessarily have to be
unreliable. If a guess is informed by concrete information (the visual criteria of the player's environment) and logical reasoning ("I can't make out the objects in that dark corner very well, therefore a guard should not be able to notice me if I hide in that corner, as long as he doesn't get too close"), then a guess has the potential to be very reliable.
Quote Posted by Hit Deity
Take real-world vs game-world versions of 'stealth'. In the real world, you've got an infinite number of positions a person can stand, lie, crouch, slouch, lean, and blend in with their surroundings, all at an infinitely possible number of speeds, depending on situation. Switching over to a game's world and its rendition of the stealth mechanic: most things are boolean... You're either standing, crouching, lying down, or "wall-flattening" like in TDS or in some of the Splinter Cell game. You don't really have that many options in a game environment, so you've got to give the player something tangible to gauge visibility with. The more random you make it, the more frustrating it becomes for
most players.
Ah, see, this is where the misunderstanding between us is. I'm not advocating
random visibility and invisibility. That's a whole other situation entirely. I still think visibility and invisibility should operate on a fixed system with fixed values and variables (gradation of darkness, obstructing terrain/objects, distance between observer and player, AI alertness state, etc.) -- not randomness, but concrete,
dependable variables. Essentially, what I'm saying is that if the player uses their heads, they should be able to
figure out whether or not they'll have good chances of concealing themselves, without
needing an artificial tool like the light gem.
Quote Posted by Hit Deity
I just don't think a randomly determined level of stealth would work. When it's unintentional in "broken stealth" games, it's bad...if it's intentional...that would be even worse. :eww:
I agree, it shouldn't be random. It should be an equation with deducible variables -- variables which the player will intuitively get more and more accurate at perceiving and unconsciously quantifying over the course of their gameplay.
Quote Posted by Starker
The reason the light gem was gradated and so granular was precisely to give the player a good idea of how well they are hidden. Not only does it give you a clear idea where the boundaries are, but you also get a sense of your relative position to those boundaries and how fast you are accelerating towards them. Also, in addition to that the player was given ample warning by the AI.
To introduce uncertainty or luck into this system would necessarily mean that either the player will be given less information or that the information would have to be unreliable to a certain degree. I don't think this is desirable for Thief stealth. In my opinion, stealth was the one thing that Thief absolutely nailed and you should not try to reinvent it without a good reason.
Again, a varying degree of player uncertainty is not the same thing as
actual uncertainty, luck, or random chance. The player should not be given less information, nor should the information they're given be unreliable. What I'm saying is that the
kind of information given to the player to determine their concealment should not be a HUD device that explicitly
signals "you are invisible" or "you are visible". Instead, that information should come from the player's awareness of their environment and visual factors like darkness, obstructing terrain/objects, distance from observers, and both visual and audio cues from AI. All the information the player needs to determine the effectiveness of their concealment should and can be conveyed by their environment.
