Renault on 24/10/2013 at 14:58
Quote Posted by nickie
The fan mission that had that very scenario went down rather well, as I recall. Give me a few minutes and I'll remember the name of it. It might have been a contest one.
Edit. Yes, it was A Dire Return, second in the Thief Reloaded 2 contest.
Good catch nickie! Although, I will say, even though I really enjoyed that mission, I wasn't a big fan of that particular part of it.
Starts around 4:20...
[video=youtube;PkpeN60cpB0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkpeN60cpB0[/video]
nickie on 24/10/2013 at 17:19
:D I love Fen's LPs - he does make me laugh. Do we complain about non-Thiefy that much these days? I think we're just glad to have something to play. And the building wasn't collapsing around us. One day I should replay it to see what I missed while running for my life. Complaints tend to revolve around key hunts, I think, more than anything else.
GodzillaX8 on 25/10/2013 at 00:36
I don't think a bit of action here and there is totally out of place. It's not like the original games had zero action.
Chade on 25/10/2013 at 01:16
Quote Posted by Starker
You generalise his statements too much. He doesn't talk about innovation as a concept. He simply says that innovation has become essentially a buzzword for some developers like David Cage and this can lead to implementing gimmicky features and systems that don't necessarily benefit the game.
I don't think so. That's not all he said. He did say that innovation is worthless unless if it doesn't lead to better quality, and he did say that the industry is too obsessed with innovation. And that's absurd.
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
Innovation, in its simplest sense, is doing something new. I took away from the video that innovating for the sake of innovation alone can be perilous.
This is why any discussion first needs to describe what innovation means. On the one hand, this is indeed the dictionary definition of innovation. On the other hand, the word carries connotations that go beyond mere novelty.
As a general rule of thumb, talking about "innovation for it's own sake" is nonsensical. If I did something completely random for no reason at all, and then claimed I was being innovative, most people would laugh at me. If I invent some new approach towards meeting some goal, however, then I might be able to claim to be innovative. This is particularly true if I have some reason to believe that my approach
might be an improvement, and even more true if "standard" approaches to meeting this goal already exist (regardless of whether they work).
Seeing as Jim's whole video is talking about this nonsensical "innovation for it's own sake" concept, he really needs to spend some time explaining exactly what he means.
Is it:
1) random changes with no particular goal in mind,
2) innovative approaches that just don't work out,
3) innovative approaches that may or may not work out but the existing approaches were working well enough, or
4) a jumbled mix of all of the above at different times in the video.
I'm going for (4).
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
In regards to Thiaf, they are selling ideas of what gamers perceive as value. Things like mocap, hardcore dialogue,
narrative. This is EM's innovation and it does nothing to advance the stealth genre. I'm not opposed to change, I just hoped for change that would expand on Thief's excellent gameplay. I am disappoint thus far.
I don't think Jim's video has anything whatsoever to do with thief 4. What EM is doing is certainly not, in any sense of the word, "innovation for it's own sake". Regardless of whether you call the changes innovation or not, they are clearly being done in an attempt to make the game more appealing to a wider audience.
You could probably mount an argument based on some of EM's statements that the city has been changed for changes sake, but I don't believe that for a moment.
New Horizon on 25/10/2013 at 01:52
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
I don't think a bit of action here and there is totally out of place. It's not like the original games had zero action.
Free form action and Quick Time Events are very different things in my book.
Starker on 25/10/2013 at 04:56
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't think so. That's not all he said. He did say that innovation is worthless unless if it doesn't lead to better quality, and he did say that the industry is too obsessed with innovation. And that's absurd.
He isn't saying innovation is worthless unless it leads to better quality. He is saying that that it should not be the goal of a game and placed above quality. And he isn't saying that the industry is too obsessed with innovating. He is saying that it is treated as a magic spell that makes anything automatically better by some people.
Also, he does define what he means by "innovating for the sake of innovating" -- doing new things without regard for whether they make for an entertaining game.
Starker on 25/10/2013 at 05:12
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
I don't think a bit of action here and there is totally out of place. It's not like the original games had zero action.
Scripted cinematic action is to action what masturbation is to sex.
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/10/2013 at 06:32
You have to really immerse yourself in order to have the same positive experience because no one is guiding you? :weird:
Just kidding, I know what you mean, it's just the practical side of it seems to go vice-versa.
Shinrazero on 25/10/2013 at 07:37
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't think Jim's video has anything whatsoever to do with thief 4. What EM is doing is certainly not, in any sense of the word, "innovation for it's own sake". Regardless of whether you call the changes innovation or not, they are clearly being done in an attempt to make the game more appealing to a wider audience.
That is exactly what EM is doing and yes, they are doing it for wider appeal. I think the clearest illustration of this is experience points. It's as if EM said "this is a mechanic found in many successful games so Thiaf has to have it too." As I am sure you know, EM
(http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/17/4847312/thief-xp-system-killed-following-community-feedback) backpedaled on this "innovation" because fans said it just does not fit and they are quite right. Making advancement based on theft is a step in the right direction. Even so, they were trying to innovate for no other sake but innovation, something the video summarized well, IMO.
