Lady Rowena on 20/4/2013 at 10:59
Brethren expressed exactly what is my point of view. Unfortunately I can't master English language well enough to explain it myself.
I always avoided games that don't allow you to save whenever you want. Also because you usually want to experiment how things work in a new game, i.e. new weapons, features, etc. And you just can't if you can't save before.
Also, not everyone can dedicate an unlimited time in playing. What about if you have to answer the phone, or if you have something urgent to do? You must reload from the last check point. Lord, THIS is boring as hell!
Springheel on 20/4/2013 at 11:52
We've discussed this on the TDM forums a few times, and I'm sympathetic to both sides of the argument. There is no doubt that tension is heightened when you don't have the safety of a recent save to fall back on, and this is a good thing, especially in stealth games. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard for me to watch some of the TDM "Let's Plays" where the player instantly reloads if he's seen, rather than using his equipment to deal with the situation. Or even worse, quicksave before each water arrow shot so he can reload if he misses.
jtr7 on 20/4/2013 at 11:58
Like giving a Thief player a deadly weapon, there will be people who think they have to use it all the time. There are too many good reasons to let the player choose.
SubJeff on 20/4/2013 at 12:10
For tension building I'm all for limited saves. 2 saves per mission for example, or a limited number of save slots so you have to gamble and save over an old save.
Actually when I played Dead Space I thought you could only have 4 saves, since that is all that is shown in the UI and I didn't realise you could scroll at first, and it really made me consider when I would save because you have plenty of upgrade options some of which you may regret.
Myagi on 20/4/2013 at 12:21
Quote Posted by Renzatic
you hit F4, then try it over and over and over again until you get it right.
Which is much worse than having to play the same prolonged seqeuence (possibly with QTEs) from the last checkpoint over and over and over again until you quit or are ready to break some computer equipment? I'm currently having that dubious pleasure in Mirror's Edge, and there's absolutely
nothing fun, immersion increasing or any other experience enhancing attribute about that.
And as Lady Rowena pointed out, removing save anywhere is does not somehow aid the modern aim of making games easier to jump in a play and then just drop quickly again, because god forbid something interrupting occurs so you have to shut down the game, then you lose all your progress from the last checkpoint. (Another pleasure of Mirror's Edge.)
Adding checkpoint saves is fine, to help those that don't want to manually deal with saving/loading. Removing save-anywhere is a lame copout by designers to artifically extend game times so they can print some nicer looking numbers on the back, or to add more horror/tension because they fail to do so within the game itself. The longest games I've ever played, and the the most horror and tension inducing games I've played all had save-anywhere. There's no reason to remove that feature. If some players can't motivate themselves not to abuse the feature then by all means add some option or special difficulty mode that disallows it when you start a new game run, but there's no good excuse to completely remove save-anywhere.
Dia on 20/4/2013 at 12:49
As has already been said, I much prefer the option of being able to save whenever & where ever I choose. Although, if there really are going to be 'sticky beams' that make it darn near impossible for your character to fall to his death or similar features that make it harder to die, then I can understand the devs' creating save checkpoints. For me, in playing Thief it was a very good thing that when you came to a serious obstacle, you had the option of saving before you took the challenge. I've played too many games wherein you have to go back to the beginning of the level if your character dies before it reaches the save checkpoint - over and over and over again. That'll break the immersion for me quicker than forced 3rd person perspective. Not fun!
jtr7 on 20/4/2013 at 12:57
Starting over is one o' many things that killed the joy of gaming. All sense of accomplishment destroyed in an instant. Retreading over the same areas is another, and TDS included it as a frikkin' feature!
demagogue on 20/4/2013 at 13:07
I agree with Lady Rowena, checkpoints don't make sense in a non-linear game. It's better if it stays non-linear with free saving.
One of the things somebody mentioned in the TDM discussion is having a default free saving ability, but the mapper is able to turn it off for a level (override the default), and if they complete the mission without the ability to save, they get some recognition on the stats page at the end of the mission... (The equivalent in T4 might be an achievement.) So you can take a screenshot of it and get that fuzzy feeling that you accomplished something big. And like Spring said, it does ramp up the excitement playing Ironman like that (the term people use for no-saving).
So if they have that as an option or as an achievement, rather than default behavior, that could be interesting. Thinking on it, an achievement would probably be easier for them to pick before an option, though, since an option is risky -- cue players not realizing they turned off save ability & freaking out; an achievement lets you keep the free-saving ability, but rewards a player that doesn't use it. I'm not a fan of achievements, really, but I know they're a big part of the gaming culture these days. But in this case, it would give an outlet for feeling good playing ironman.
pavlovscat on 20/4/2013 at 16:43
I believe in options. Manual saves are a no-brainer. I don't see how anyone could be against them. You have the choice to save or not to save. I have played without saving/restarting to increase the level of challenge once I was familiar with a mission; however, the first time I'm approaching a challenging situation, I appreciate not have to replay from a checkpoint. Manual saving is an option you do not have to use, but it adds convenience and decreases frustration when you have it.
Assuming that T4 will have an achievement system, manual saving is an opportunity for a series of meaningful achievements as opposed to goals achieved by merely playing through the game normally. Playing with a limited number of saves decreasing to no saves at all would be an achievement series I would enjoy increasing my skills to achieve.
Renault on 20/4/2013 at 17:10
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Really? How so?
Checkpoints are just another form of hand holding in games, for the Y gen that just wants to run straight forward fast and shoot everything in sight. We don't want to give them too much to think about, like you know, saving the game or anything! Why do checkpoints even exist in games? They're designed for people who just play brainlessly and don't think things through.
