sneaksie415 on 30/5/2024 at 21:49
While there is no right or wrong way to go about the missions, collect loot, or satisfy objectives, after years of playing Thief here and there I have developed my own preferred route in most levels (some I still haven't quite figured out the "optimal" route). Typically this means going through the missions with a story in my mind, or otherwise how Garrett would *probably* go about it. Some missions this route is more ambiguous while others it's more apparent.
For example, in Cragscleft Prison Garrett doesn't learn about Nammon escaping with the contents of the evidence box until he reads the scroll in the Officer's Quarters. Therefore, I tend not to "discover" and sidetrack down a random sewer to find Felix and retrieve his map until I have already spoken with Cutty and read the scroll. I suppose an extra curious Garrett may have already found Nammon. I tend to go for minimal pickpockets (seems more realistic and less tedious in some missions), so I can either backtrack to the Officer's Quarters to obtain the rest of the loot by means of the key found on Nammon (a rather risky move on Garrett's part), or I can pickpocket the Hammerite priest in the chapel after having distracted him and the acolyte to retrieve the gold hammer on the pedestal. It depends on whether I'm going for all loot (which I usually do), because I have done a run where I will skip particular loot that requires a lot of extra steps to obtain in a "realistic" fashion (looking at you Thieves Guild Casino loot, and also that one silver nugget in the "barracks" before Reuben's mansion).
Another example is in The Haunted Cathedral mission. One could follow the Thief ghosting expert Klatremus' guide to obtain The Eye first, effectively doing the level backwards, which is fine, but I choose to follow the route that lights up the areas one by one in a more natural way.
Right now I am doing the Mage Towers, and it seems the "correct way" is to enter the keep not through large main doors (surely one can't just waltz in main entrance), and maybe it's not even through the side doors to the keep, rather it's through the secret passage in the gardens, and then through the basement! Garrett even has a comment upon discovering the exit sooner than after everything is completed, saying that it looks like the way out, and will be useful later. Going this way also lets me read the scrolls that hint at various things in a more natural way. (I don't pickpocket the unique keys in the basement quite yet as the guards here "need" them on their patrol route through the door, rather I will hold the door open as they pass)
These are just some examples; of course there is no right way, it's just how I like to play out the "story" in my mind. New players will obviously be focusing on exploring and enjoying, while other players will have their own way.
So, fellow Thief players, are there any particular routes and methods you like to do? If I find other tidbits on "canon" routes I may post them as another comment on this thread.
Not to digress too much, but I tend to implement some ghosting rules (particularly not being seen ever by any human) while still using items here and there. I will put out only a few particular torches at times, use a moss arrow here and there in "inconspicuous" spots, and even do an occasional knockout, e.g. the Hammerite Priest guarding between the prison and barracks in Cragscleft is just utterly in the way, and putting out a torch in front of his face only to have him stand in darkness seems a little silly from a "realistic" perspective. Other times I will use a noise distraction, e.g. the idiot guard in Bafford's basement who blocks the path. Just a little bit of my style as I find complete ghosting to be an interesting challenge maybe once, but seems too tedious, especially when it sometimes requires pushing stationary NPCs (definitely not realistic) or waiting for long periods of time for them to edge out of the way.
downwinder on 31/5/2024 at 04:15
i only use a certain route on escape mission for thief 1/g, by passing as little spiders as possible i think i got it down to 2 spiders
Kamlorn on 1/6/2024 at 23:03
Quote Posted by sneaksie415
For example, in Cragscleft Prison Garrett doesn't learn about Nammon escaping with the contents of the evidence box until he reads the scroll in the Officer's Quarters. Therefore, I tend not to "discover" and sidetrack down a random sewer to find Felix and retrieve his map until I have already spoken with Cutty and read the scroll.
These are just some examples; of course there is no right way, it's just how I like to play out the "story" in my mind.
Yea, yea, exact the same feeling haunts me throughout many other games. For example, making my way through Skyrim I tend not to discover locations on my way untill there is no ' story reason, quest, ARROW on the map' leading right there.
Now, thinking about that, I suppose I know the roots of that gaming habit. Welp, it's true at least for me. Playing games walking anywhere and touching everything can break them out. So it's better to have some kind of special permission from the devs, ' did those guys actually assume that I can be here on that level? '.
Quote Posted by sneaksie415
So, fellow Thief players, are there any particular routes and methods you like to do?
Some kind of "fair play" with patrols: using only in-game features to avoid, detect or predict them. It usually comes down to avoid using quicksave - quickload feature for such situations.
I like to speculate on map, buildings and rooms layout utility, from everyday life perspective mostly. How did those guys put those boxes up there? Or something like ' it must suck to have such a big decorated mansion but without any kind of restroom'.
WEI on 6/6/2024 at 19:25
Quote Posted by sneaksie415
so I can either backtrack to the Officer's Quarters to obtain the rest of the loot by means of the key found on Nammon
I always tend to do things in a particular order, factoring difficulties if an alarm is rung and how close it is to my exit. So going to Nammon would always be the last since it's in the lower parts of the prison and near the exit. The Officer's would be one of the first thing I'd go for, it's in the higher parts of the prison, in theory more dangerous and if there is an alarm it would be awfull to go there. For the key I always pickpocket it through the window.
Quote Posted by sneaksie415
rather it's through the secret passage in the gardens
Funny thing is that it's how I entered the first time I played, figured it'd be too dangerous through the main door, went to the gardens, discovered the secret passage, always find it fun to go at it that way, never even tried another way since.
For ghosting I tend to not do it when it doesn't make sense : if I go to a haunted place where I am aware there isn't a living soul, then it doesn't matter, no one but the dead will know I have been there and no one will rat me out to the authorities (or to anything that would cause me harm later), so if I can do thing quietly and unseen I'll do them, but if it's easier to blast undead and scare burrikcs I'll just do that (I'd still try to stay sneacky though). I also try to use my arrows and tools as less as possible too (except the rope arrows of course).
(not exactly related, but still a roleplay thing : I can't help myself but put bottles near unconscious bodies or put them to bed, in hope that when tey wake up or someone see them they may think they just fell asleep)
Sanctus Germanus on 15/6/2024 at 21:01
Always loved to play with a sense of narrative logic and progression, probably because this game fascinated me for its scenario and lore and atmosphere as much as (or more than) for its gameplay. I was especially fond of the transition between Cragscleft and the Bonehoard, ending the first with the finding of Nammon's body, Felix's notes, and the going from a crowded place of known dangers at daylight to an abandoned place of unknown dangers in the nighttime. However, this was usually when my plan of following a correct route went to shambles, because there was so much to see down there, so many ways to reach it, and so many places to explore despite not offering anything to the mission/route. And I was also searching for a "dramatic" way of facing each objective (how and when to enter certain rooms, what to do as a "reaction" to an event, etc.), like instilling the max suspense or awe or terror in the "scene" that I was playing, both in the game and inside my mind, in a mental story, like you mention. We could say that the act of playing the game causes a whole movie to be projected inside my taffer skull :P
Another contributing factor in my failure to design a canon route was perfectionism. Not only I was trying to reach every goal in a realistic and exciting way, but also trying to score all loot and no injuries, not even a slight miscalculation. This, of course, contradicts the "realistic" part. Sacrificing loot and lore is necessary. Now I'm thinking that even taking some damage and getting lost and retracing steps is actually something that would happen to Garrett, since he is just a man after all (and so do we, the players embodied in him). But now this contradicts the "route" part of the whole thing...
Cigam on 17/6/2024 at 14:13
I think that Ghosting is simply intended as a videogame challenge, rather than intended to be "realistic" or for it to "make sense" for a real life ghost thief.
If it was about realism then there would be no objections to potions, health loss or a requirement to complete all optional objectives.
After all, a real life ghost thief would much rather take an invisibility potion over a first alert, and would tolerate a bit of pain holding their breath during a long underwater swim, if it was a choice between that and going a route that inevitably results in a guard's first alert.
if you think of it as a videogame challenge, then it makes sense that a player would want to remain undetected whether the potential alertees are human, animal, mineral or vegetable. Or for a player to nudge enemies to move their visual cones out of detection range. the aim is simply to complete a mission without triggering certain game mechanics, not to make realistic sense :)
Anyway, regarding routes. I too have struggled with realism and a sense of "cheating", when it comes to using foreknowledge in missions.
When Iron Manning for example, I have tried to decide whether it is reasonable that Garrett would do this before that.
I would say that getting the map in the sewer In Cragscleft, or getting the key to the locker and the rust gas before going to the submarine in Precious cargo are reasonable, because as suggested these could naturally result from general exploration.
However, doing some of the Brother Murus tasks before he has given them to you was a lot harder to justify, if I wished to avoid any sense of "cheating" during my Iron Man runs. I mean, why would Garrett just randomly bury some bodies or make a Blessed Hammer Holy Symbol? :)
Cathedral Haunt on 8/7/2024 at 18:36
Just like others on this thread, I also like to roleplay and try to make it as 'realistic' as possible.
When I make mistakes, I like to solve them instead of loading; after all, it's realistic that a guard heard a noise in the kitchen, went to investigate, saw nothing and disregarded it. He could easily think that a pan fell, there was a rat, or maybe some servant woke up to have some cheese? (this last one also explains the missing cheese and bread loaf, so it's a very valid assumption to make :D).
It's also realistic (at least in the context of the game's universe) for someone to run into a thief, suddenly be blinded by a flash of light, and next thing they know they're waking up in the morning with a headache and a bump on the head, next to some sort of doctor and the worried owners of the mansion asking stuff like "Do you remember what happened?", "Did you see the thief's face?", etc.
As for routes, I think that it's not too far-fetched to find a key or note before 'supposed to' due to exploration. In fact, on many occasions, while playing a mission for the first time, I found a note that I couldn't make sense of yet, but later everything added up when new information was uncovered (in fact, many missions and FMs seem to do this on purpose).
I agree with not abusing foreknowledge when replaying missions though, especially if it means taking extremely unnatural routes.
Samantha1 on 14/7/2024 at 16:19
I have a similar way of playing sneaksie415 :) I like to make it as realistic as possible. I blackjack people more often because I think it´s what garrett would do aswell, but if I can sneak past, use water or moos arrows, I´ll do so.
In the haunted cathedral mission I don´t think it makes sense for garrett to go straight to the eye without stealing any of the obvious laying around loot, just because it´s his main goal. Rather I think he´d like sneaking through the haunted town, grabbing everything he can until he reaches his final goal.
Cigam on 10/11/2024 at 20:32
Quote Posted by Kamlorn
Yea, yea, exact the same feeling haunts me throughout many other games. For example, making my way through Skyrim I tend not to discover locations on my way untill there is no ' story reason, quest, ARROW on the map' leading right there.
Now, thinking about that, I suppose I know the roots of that gaming habit. Welp, it's true at least for me. Playing games walking anywhere and touching everything can break them out. So it's better to have some kind of special permission from the devs, ' did those guys actually assume that I can be here on that level? '.
I know the feeling. I remember in Fallout 3 just randomly finding a bunker, entering it and then inadvertently advancing the main plot by several quests after finding what I wasn't supposed to have found until much later on.
I didn't want to skip over so many of the main quests so reloaded.
But yes, I too can be wary of random exploration, or at least in open go-anywhere game worlds. I think that they should find ways to prevent such accidental 'got there too early' moments, Such as, in this case, locking the bunker and only giving you the means to open it when it is the right time.
That said, sometimes it can be fun to test if the developers have anticipated certain player actions. The original Deus Ex was particularly good for anticipating 'non-standard' player moves and having a line of dialogue for them.
