hopper on 2/2/2007 at 15:53
Watching you guys being "funny" at each other is like trying to eat my own balls.
Kolya on 2/2/2007 at 16:23
Convict, it somehow manages to linger here. ;)
hopper, you seem to know a lot about the subject of eating your own balls. Why stop there? Reach for your personal star!
SD on 2/2/2007 at 18:39
Please. This exchange is inane even by yours and Convict's standards, Kolya.
Chimpy Chompy on 2/2/2007 at 19:59
Quote Posted by Paz
Until you work out "why will a dude feel so strongly about something that he'll blow himself up, and take others with him?" you're pretty much fucked. In fairness to those in power though, I don't know the answer to that question either - it's incomprehensible to me.
It's especially hard to follow when that guy is, for all intents and purposes, as English as you or I. :erg: What's pushing these people to feel so distanced and hateful towards wider British society and embrace fanaticism instead?
I guess it's something to do with
-Iraq and general history of west dicking around in the middle east, support for Israel
-Crazy hardcore islamist preachers
-racist assholes like the BNP
-unemployed & going nowhere in life (maybe, I recall reading some of the July bombers had not-completely-crap-sounding jobs but not sure)
-possible failures in multiculturalism
Although even tho that's a recipie for "hate the country around you", it's still hard to fathom being pushed to the point of killing yourself in that cause.
SD on 2/2/2007 at 20:39
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Although even tho that's a recipie for "hate the country around you", it's still hard to fathom being pushed to the point of killing yourself in that cause.
But if you genuinely believe that after you die a martyr's death, you attain a state of being that is truly heavenly, then killing yourself in such a manner isn't even a sacrifice - it's a positive career move.
Kolya on 2/2/2007 at 21:03
Std, that's funny, minutes before you reminded Convict and me of having fun below even our lowly standards (thanks), a friend of yours came by and exposed his balls to us out of sheer boredom.
Chimpy Chompy, I was trying to adress the very same issue. I'd like to add some points to the list:
- economical policies relying on the trickle down effect
- anonymity and estrangement of the western lifestyle
- the loss of any meta-economical ideals in favor of
- global cash flow closely followed by
- the age of the cynic
- the loss of privacy
- bad TV programs
Paz on 2/2/2007 at 21:20
Quote Posted by Strodo Dawkins
But if you genuinely believe that after you die a martyr's death, you attain a state of being that is truly heavenly, then killing yourself in such a manner isn't even a sacrifice
I'm dubious about that line of thought, it makes a lot of rather simplistic assumptions.
1). That The Koran actually says this stuff about the martyr-to-virgins ratio in one or all versions (are there more than one?) and that it's translated correctly in the first place.
I have not read The Koran and I don't particularly trust media-digest versions or snippets taken out of context. This needs to be cleared up by someone who knows what they're talking about.
2). If the above is accurate, that there are devoted believers who take it literally. That's obviously possible.
3). That they're so devoted that they take it literally, and yet ignore all the other passages which presumably say "killing innocent people on an underground train isn't cool, dude." Why would that be? In itself, that's a huge question.
4). Thereby suggesting that they're not devoted believers at all and in fact are just pissed off criminals who want some selective text to retrospectively justify their actions. OR ARE THEY? etc
I dunno. I'm uncomfortable speculating about it too much because I know dick all about being a muslim, or Islam in general when it comes down to it, really.
(oh wait, except bits from the "history of medicine" GCSE module!)
SD on 2/2/2007 at 22:14
Funnily enough, as I understand it, the "72 virgins" bit is likely a mistranslation, and what the martyr will find waiting for him in Heaven are 72 of the very finest (
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,631357,00.html) white raisins.
But I feel that your points 1), 2) and 3) are sort of moot anyway, and whether or not the Koran says these things is not the issue. The issue is that impressionable youngsters are brainwashed into believing these things by militant imams with a hostile political agenda.
Kolya on 3/2/2007 at 12:21
The points I mentioned above weren't a joke (although some may think so.. "olol bad tv makes suicide bombers of us all, etc") but these things are part of our society and create a climate in which individuals can easily get the impression no one cares about them. Immigrants and also people born here may be assuming that whether they live or die doesn't make a difference to our world. So the social and spiritual* vacuum of our society helps radical muslim preachers to gain followers. Because what they are essentially promising, by virgins, fame or otherwise is that the martyr will be loved and respected.
In conclusion the best way to keep people from wanting to kill us would start with ourselves living meaningful, loving lives in a society that cares for us and we for it.
Edit:
* "spiritual" is probably the wrong word, what I mean is 'having ideals', preferably humanistic, non-religious ideals
Edit2:
While the above may sound like preaching, it's not meant to be at all. I do acknowledge that many people try to lead such lives already and therefor may feel that what I said is unfair to them. But they may have also been in situations before where they wanted to do the right thing but were hindered by circumstances they feel are outside of their control. A well known fact is that social jobs and activities don't get the pay and not even the respect they deserve. To realize that such circumstances can and have to be changed for the well being of ourselves was the point I tried to get across.
Apart from that I'm not a religious person and the similarity of what I wrote above to what a preacher might say stems from the fact that religious people often do the right things for the wrong reasons. To be friendly to others is not a thing you should do to gain the favour of some abstract god but for the human in front of you and ultimately for yourself, to be treated the same.
Oh my, I think commchat will kill me for this. But that is the solution to terroristic attacks from my view. Thanks for your time.
