catbarf on 23/3/2020 at 22:57

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I'm pretty fucking mad about Trump encouraging people to go get chloroquine, touting it as an actual cure.

Not only is the chloroquine supply limited enough that panic-buying idiots represent a serious threat to people who actually need it, but anyone who's actually had to take chloroquine can tell you how awful of a drug it is. Intense nausea and diarrhea, cramps, sensitivity to light, high frequency of more serious reactions- I had to take it for malaria once and I'm not sure which was worse, the disease or the cure. And on top of that it's incredibly easy to die from it, with overdoses reported from as little as double the recommended dosage.

So color me absolutely not fucking surprised that people in countries where it's readily available (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/africa/chloroquine-trump-nigeria-intl/index.html) are already overdosing from it, while in the US, someone has already died (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/489097-man-dies-after-taking-malaria-medication-in-effort-to-prevent-coronavirus) from ingesting cleaning products containing chloroquine.

And that asshole is getting on Twitter and talking up how chloroquine plus a common antibiotic will fix the situation, and he's got a 'good feeling' about it. For fuck's sake. It would be dumb enough on its own, but inciting the panicking masses to endanger themselves and others with what amounts to a reckless fad is something else entirely.

lowenz on 23/3/2020 at 23:11

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He's Trump exactly for this.

Gryzemuis on 23/3/2020 at 23:58

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This is where we are in NL.

Today I learned that we hardly test people anymore. It seems the only systemic set of tests is when people get so ill, that they need to be hospitalized. Only then they get tested. So the hospital knows where to put that person: in the covid-19 half of the hospital, or in the other half.

We have 2 daily late-night talk-shows in NL on TV. The last few weeks, the only subject they talk about is the corona virus. Normally those 2 shows invite a mix of people: politicians, celebreties, singers, actors, and sometimes more serious people. These weeks the level of guests has improved significantly. Not only relevant politicians (minister of health, etc), but also doctors, nurses, scientists. And the people in charge, like the head of our national health institution, executives of hospitals, etc. Normally nobody in those shows give out any real or relevant information. Politicians are there to improve their ratings, nothing else. But these new people actually take the discussion very serious. They want to educate the viewers. Emphasise how important it is to stay the fuck home. But they also give out real numbers. And they try to explain what those numbers mean, or how they can/should/must/might be interpreted. E.g. I learned 2-3 weeks ago they had 1150 ICU beds in the whole of our country. And that they had 50 covid-19 patients in the ICU. Yesterday I learned they now have 450 covid-19 patients in ICUs.

A number of general practitioners were guests. They all talk about how they don't get tested. Yesterday, there was a lady GP at the table in one talkshow, who told the story how here husband (also a GP) got ill. Pretty ill, but not ill enough to go to the hospital. He was tested. Positive. A few days later, this lady GP also starts to get symptoms, including a fever. So she self-quarantines. After a few days, symptoms went away. So she told the audience: "24 hours later, I went back to work". She's not been tested, 24 hours after he fever went away, she was already treating patients again. The fuck ? And another 24 hours later she is sitting in the studio doing this talk-show ! You could see half the other guests at the table go pale, and think WTF!?!. Her defense was: official guidelines say that 24 hours after the symptoms go away, you can go back to work".

But it seems this is normal in NL now. If you get symptoms, you will 100% sure not get tested. You're supposed to self-quarantine. There is no testing to confirm you are recovered. Our GPs do not get tested (as a rule-of-thumb). People who work in homes for the elderly, who provide care-at-home, who work in institutions for physically or mentally handicapped people do not get tested. Heck, people in hospitals have good protection (suites, masks, gloves). GPs have huge shortages of protective gear. One GP showed a picture of him in an overall he bought at the shop for building materials. But all the other caretakers get nothing. And no testing.

From listening to those GPs and other people "at the frontlines" in those talk-shows, I get the strong impression they would like to see much more testing. But all the politicians downplay the importance of testing. I think that must be because we have way way too few tests available. We have the capacity in our labs, but we don't have the materials. And our country doesn't have the capabilities (factories, base materials, etc) to produce these tests ourselves. We depend on import. Another weird thing here is that from the start, the official guideline in NL was: "facemasks don't provide good enough protection, so there's no need for anyone to wear them". Of course people in hospitals, and even GPs, wear them. But nobody in the street does. While we've all seen the images from China, South-Korea, Japan and other Asian countries. Everybody in the street wears them. Cheap masks give 80% protection. The better masks give 95% protection. (I don't know what those percentages mean. 80% of what ?). I am convinced that if they're not perfect, they surely must help. If I had one (none for sale anywhere) I would wear it when I go outside (for shopping once every 2 weeks). I am positive that our guideline to not bother with mask is 100% because we don't have any masks for the public.


The good news in NL is: all those "strong advisories" we had, are now mandatory. Last weekend the sun was shining. Loads of people went outside. Crowded beaches on saturday. So the mayors closed all the parking lots near the beaches. Sunday our forests and parks were flooded with people. People just don't care. Now things are mandatory. People can get fined 400 euros for going outside without a good reason. Or getting together with more than 2 people in public. These measures will last until June 1st. Our prime-minister has hinted that if people still don't follow up, the next step will be full lockdown. It seems our government is slowly taking this serious. Now we need the people to start realizing.

Gryzemuis on 24/3/2020 at 00:38

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Yes, I agree. That's why I told the story. That's why the other guests in the studio were shocked that she was sitting at the table with 2 presenters and 7 other guests. But it is indeed the official guideline.

I think a lot of our "guidelines" that were set earlier, were inspired by politics more than science. To prevent a panic. To prevent people stockpiling stuff. Remember 2 weeks ago (or more) the WHO was saying "people are contagious from the first day they get infected". And later "we think people are most contagious in the first days after they get infected, way before they get symptoms" ? Even after the WHO said that, I still heard people on national TV say "as long as you don't have symptoms, you are not contagious". That's nuts. That's dumb. That is irresponsible.

Yesterday I felt depressed. I'm taking this very serious myself. But it hasn't affected me mentally. I'm a single guy. Living in a large and comfy house, neighbors are all 100+ meter away. I'm doing fine. But I saw the people in NL this weekend, acting as if everything is fine and dandy. I told me dad (80+) to do shopping once a week, and stay inside the house. Well, go outside to walk the dog of course. Friday he told me he's doing groceries every day again, because sitting at home was driving him crazy. I keep in touch via phone with a few friends. One of them works in a record shop. No masks, no gloves, nothing. This weekend his boss decided to finally close the record shop. So my friends says "I now have time to come visit you for one or 2 days, what do you think ?" Huh ?!? I'm taking this "social distancing" serious. He works in a shop, knowing what the risks are, and then wants to come visit me ? On top of that, his girlfriend works in a hospital. Not at the beds, but in a middle-management role. The hospital decided that middle-management doesn't need masks or gloves or anything. Why the fuck you think you're welcome in my house ? Let's at least wait 1-2 weeks incubation time. He didn't even think of that. I can go on and on with examples of people not seeing any risks anywhere.

I don't know why. Maybe it's cellphones. Maybe it's comic books. Maybe it's that new Jazz music thing. But people don't use their brains anymore. I'm cautious. I do the social distancing, as we're being asked. But if I compare myself to almost anyone else, I wonder if I've become a paranoid, negative, sour and bitter person. Am I crazy ? Should I just say "fuck corona, yolo, I do what I want" !!? Of course not. But it's depressing.

Again, the good thing is that suprisingly our government is more serious about the (partial) lockdown now.
I still don't see a way to get out of this mess within 12-18 months. But at least the government has shown now that is willing to act.

zombe on 24/3/2020 at 01:16

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Well, all of this shit is depressing ... anyway, heard that Contagion ( (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagion_(2011_film)) ) was a decent movie and i need to fix my day-night cycle (the hard way) ... seems like a good idea.

edit: some good bits, but mostly kinda crap. 5 more hours to go ... new what?