lowenz on 20/9/2021 at 10:19
Quote Posted by faetal
Can't reason with someone who is
confident in their ignorance.
Today that's literally everyone, thanks to the inner work (in the mind) of the web and Internet. It really exists to make ignorants high-confident and let them feel "indipendent".
Cipheron on 21/9/2021 at 19:45
This stuff is getting sad
(
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/idaho-covid-crisis-nurse-death/index.html)
Quote:
Natalie Rise was a registered nurse in Idaho who loved her job as a home health care worker before she decided to stay at home with her special-needs twins, according to her brother, Daryl Rise. But her science-based training to become an RN was apparently no match for the disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines being shared across social media, according to her brother.
Rise refused to be vaccinated, even as the virus surged in her city, Coeur d'Alene. And even as her mother lay in a coma in a hospital bed, fighting for life against Covid, Natalie advised her family against being vaccinated.
"She was telling me not to get vaccinated," Daryl Rise told CNN. "I think it was from misinformation, I think it was falling into negative social media and bloggers, YouTubers."
...
As for the Rise family, Natalie's death has upended the family. Daryl has given up his job as a truck driver to help care for the 10-year-old twins his sister left behind, he said.
His and Natalie's mother, who is still recovering from Covid-19, remains on the fence about being vaccinated, he said.
But Daryl got his first shot the day after his sister died.
"It was the hardest decision of my life, you know, am I doing right by God? Am I doing right by Natalie?" he said. "And I got it out of fear."
The report also details how idaho has no mask mandates and one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country, unlike nearby Washington state, and now Washington hospitals are filling up with patient overflow from Idaho.
lowenz on 21/9/2021 at 19:58
The real HARD question is this: we need this kind of people? People that in front of death refuse salvation because of their "believes".....are they freedom martyrs or dumb simpletons?
Cipheron on 21/9/2021 at 20:05
Quote Posted by lowenz
The real HARD question is this: we need this kind of people? People that in front of death refuse salvation because of their "believes".....are they freedom martyrs or dumb simpletons?
That's too harsh a perspective. By that logic you could just shoot the homeless as being equally unneeded. So you could ask to what ends we need any people then only keep the "needed" people, rather than try and make a system where people who feel they aren't needed have a voice.
Right wing populists feed on people who feel marginalized, but misdirect that anger. But we also get people on the left who have misplaced anger too. Those are usually exemplified by the phrase "when you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". The way to spot those people is that they're the ones who claim that a specific "ism" is behind all of life's and society's problems.
One example is advocates who blame "the patriarchy" for all domestic abuse, and they actually argue for defunding alcohol and drug dependency reduction programs in favor of putting the abusers through anti-patriarchy indoctrination programs that even their creators now disavow (read about the Duluth Program). So basically you have a subset of advocates who are trying to steer funding into their almost religious belief in one factor, and hurting funding for actual evidence-based programs because they believe that highlighting how alcohol and drug abuse are major factors in real domestic abuse is "letting the patriarchy off the hook". This is basically the anti-Vaxxers of social services.
(
https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/its-about-violence-not-the-patriarchy-how-feminism-is-failing-women/)
(
https://www.deakin.edu.au/about-deakin/news-and-media-releases/articles/study-shows-alcohol-and-drugs-play-significant-role-in-domestic-violence)
Binge drinking makes people about 6 times more likely to be involved in domestic violence incidents, which is a correlation massively more convincing than any of the studies that suggest beliefs / media play a big role in it. Meanwhile, the programs they put people through are ideologically based but don't have any data to back up that they're effective. However if you oppose the programs they say you're part of the conspiracy, knowingly or not. These people are about as bad as anti-vaxxers because they're actively preventing the social services from moving past the ideological stuff: overthrowing "the patriarchy" becomes a more important goal than protecting individual women using evidence-based interventions.
lowenz on 21/9/2021 at 21:29
Homeless people accept help. This kind of people hate *ideologically* every form of help, just like you say: people with the "-ism" obsession.
Of course they're in the left wing too, but the "conspiracy", paranoid ones now are only in the right wing (being in this area the national-socialists like the russian nazbols or the "sovereignists" here in Europe too - amusingly together with their libertarian arch-nemesis).
These people have the same "pseudorevolutionary" perspective of muslim terrorists.
Cipheron on 21/9/2021 at 22:00
Quote Posted by lowenz
Homeless people accept help. This kind of people hate *ideologically* every form of help, just like you say: people with the "-ism" obsession.
Of course they're in the left wing too, but the "conspiracy", paranoid ones now are only in the right wing (being in this area the national-socialists like the russian nazbols or the "sovereignists" here in Europe too - amusingly together with their libertarian arch-nemesis).
These people have the
same "pseudorevolutionary" perspective of muslim terrorists.
One big reason is that liberalism is actually centrism, in liberal democracies. The right wing and left wing are the fringes. But the liberals control the "left" wing party, so they keep out the far-left's conspiracy theories and anti-sciency elements from having power. Whereas with the right wing party, those ideas basically seep through and influence policy.
(
https://www.iflscience.com/environment/antiscientific-leftwingers-just-bad-those-right/page-3/)
Quote:
Comedian John Oliver recently picked apart, among other things, Stein's scientifically dubious viewpoints on national television. Taking that fateful step from cynicism into outright conspiracy theory madness, she declared Oliver a member of a conspiracy linked to none other than Hillary Clinton.
So John Oliver, who is moderate left picked apart the anti-science stance of Jill Stein, the leader of a US left-wing party, The Green Party and now he's part of the conspiracy. Similarly the whole 'patriarchy' thing is really a massive conspiracy theory, even if unwitting, the idea is that there's a single force driving things that way, and that's clearly untrue. It's an unrealistic boiling down of complex societal issues into an easily digested concept, simplification, then using that to radicalize people. It's arguable that this has killed people already, if you look into how that movement promotes ineffective non-evidence-based interventions instead of being open to looking at multi-factor analysis in a serious way. Sure, the right wing is the bigger issue right now but that doesn't mean it's only right wing beliefs that can go off the rails.
Starker on 21/9/2021 at 22:37
Quote Posted by lowenz
The real HARD question is this: we need this kind of people?
I'd say her 10-year-old children certainly needed her.
lowenz on 22/9/2021 at 06:32
Quote Posted by Starker
I'd say her 10-year-old children certainly needed her.
Well, it seems that she didn't think so.
Starker on 22/9/2021 at 12:17
People die in stupid ways all the time. Doesn't mean they are not needed or that they don't want to see their children grow up.
And, y'know, even if someone isn't needed, that doesn't mean they should be ignored and not given help. If you neglect a group of people, it will hurt more than just those people. No man is an island.
lowenz on 22/9/2021 at 13:05
You're right but these guys consider themself the "haralds" of freedom, justice and eventually "truth" when in reality they're misguided (by professional political manipulators thanks to their own pride) lunatics.
They're self-righteous in the most abysmal way possible.
I got the vaccine (Pfizer) in July and I'm well, my mother (with an hystory of the infamous thrombocytopenia possibly linked to AstraZeneca as side effect) got it too (AstraZeneca) and luckly she got - before and after the vaccination - her blood screening exams and guess what.....NO problem at all! The *same* values!
And I'm talking about a subject who should have got Pfizer and not AstraZeneca due to her medical condition.
Nonetheless, no problem at all. The same for her husband (my father) and her brother. And of course we're not "special" in any possible way.