lowenz on 9/9/2021 at 17:04
Quote Posted by Starker
Who knew top secret bioweapons research could be so easily uncovered with a simple FOIA request.
They don't make them as secret as before :(
faetal on 9/9/2021 at 18:31
"Let's break all the rules except the ones requiring us to file orderly paperwork" - China, apparently
demagogue on 10/9/2021 at 14:10
China had a bio-weapons program, and it's not unreasonable to think it's still around in some capacity. Coronavirus doesn't have the genetic profile of it though. It does have the profile of the string of past China-origin viruses like SARS. Those two things can be true at the same time.
Also I wrote a whole chapter for a book on state responsibility and infectious & communicable diseases (the book was on int'l law & ICDs), so I can go into pretty exhaustive detail about the responsibility of China for the spread of coronavirus from practically every angle there is, but I'm not going to re-write it here. I'll give you a taste. There's a good case that some of China's actions broke its int'l obligations, especially on the early reporting & regulation side under the IHR & WHO rules. The case for a crime against humanity (causing or facilitating the spread to intentionally cause mass harm) would be a tough sell, at least outside of China. The gov't did take steps to shut down its own alarmist doctors early on because they were undermining the authority of the gov't; so it has the same effect as facilitating the spread, but to the extent you look at the leaks & pattern of behavior from inside the gov't about the motivations, it's about maintaining authority & control of the narrative & not about intentional harm. That's the story that comes together.
Oh, a small aside, there's a credible allegation that China did intentionally use coronavirus as a weapon against its Turkic Muslim population. Possibly 1-3 million were detained throughout the period, and there are indications they allowed the virus to spread through the detention & forced labor facilities without particularly checking it, or at least enough indication it's an allegation worth investigating. This is just to say, the fact that coronavirus probably wasn't engineered as a bioweapon, looking at its genetic profile, is a separate issue from the question whether China is the kind of gov't that would use it as a weapon if it suited them. (There is no way that claim is going to be able to be fairly investigated much less prosecuted though.)
Two of the major challenges to any claim are force majeur (the virus would have spread no matter what the Chinese gov't did) & anyway no gov't wants to press a claim against China even if there were good evidence for it for political reasons. (Also the venues for it, like the IHR conference, aren't really good fits, and it sure as hell isn't going to any domestic court or the Security Council.)
But that's not why I'm posting. I'm posting because of (
https://www.facebook.com/JamesTHarrisMedia/posts/4488487901228844) this shit. (Quick version: Biden's vaccine mandate is literally like 1930s Germans complying with nazis.) It's of course a grossly offensive analogy. But the sheer conviction of most of that comment thread that the US is becoming nazified is insane. The almost mathematical irony to the whole thing is that I am so sure the people posting in that thread in that way are exactly the personality types that would have complied in 1930s Germany. They fall for propaganda faster than a Trump casino falls to the ground when hit by bankruptcy & demolition.
lowenz on 10/9/2021 at 16:56
Quote Posted by demagogue
But that's not why I'm posting. I'm posting because of (
https://www.facebook.com/JamesTHarrisMedia/posts/4488487901228844) this shit. (Quick version: Biden's vaccine mandate is literally like 1930s Germans complying with nazis.) It's of course a grossly offensive analogy. But the sheer conviction of most of that comment thread that the US is becoming nazified is insane. The almost mathematical irony to the whole thing is that I am so sure the people posting in that thread in that way are exactly the personality types that would have complied in 1930s Germany. They fall for propaganda faster than a Trump casino falls to the ground when hit by bankruptcy & demolition.
As always, you got it right.
Azaran on 10/9/2021 at 17:19
Quote Posted by demagogue
But that's not why I'm posting. I'm posting because of (
https://www.facebook.com/JamesTHarrisMedia/posts/4488487901228844) this shit. (Quick version: Biden's vaccine mandate is literally like 1930s Germans complying with nazis.) It's of course a grossly offensive analogy. But the sheer conviction of most of that comment thread that the US is becoming nazified is insane. The almost mathematical irony to the whole thing is that I am so sure the people posting in that thread in that way are exactly the personality types that would have complied in 1930s Germany. They fall for propaganda faster than a Trump casino falls to the ground when hit by bankruptcy & demolition.
Gotta love when people draw comparisons to 20th century dictatorships. When at the same time they can freely protest and express their opinions publicly. They don't see the irony
nbohr1more on 10/9/2021 at 19:47
Quote Posted by faetal
I'm leaning on the argument that the "proof" that you posted doesn't show the thing you think it shows.
Maybe China is developing bio-weapons, who knows, but the idea that this pandemic is somehow a manifestation of that, requires more than link spamming and saying "CHINA IS DODGY THEREFORE ANYTHING BAD I IMAGINE THEM DOING MUST BE TRUE".
Your opinion is that China started this pandemic - fine, I'm happy for you. But your opinion shouldn't be assumed to be fact without evidence.
You're free to have whatever opinion you like, but when you post your opinion in public places as fact, don't get a wobbly lip when people ask for something solid.
You're not asking them to accept that a certain sports team is objectively better than another, you are asking them to accept the nation of China committed a global act of bio-terrorism.
I get tired of saying this, but out of curiosity, why is TTLG an audience you are so desperate to convince? You get nothing but flak when you post here, and you know that if you don't provide solid evidence, you're going to get pushback.
It's like someone keeps hitting your reset button.
Also, what lowenz said. The best bioweapons are ones which can be targeted, not ones which spread everywhere. It's a
China hates everyone including themselves scenario. Who benefits?
China has a larger population than the rest of the world. If they are partially impacted by their own bio-weapon the collateral damage will be acceptable compared to the damage they can do outside China.
The official paperwork around this affair are just window dressing so they can frame this attack as an "accident:. The first firewall against understanding the attack is to convince the world that it occurred naturally.
Once that fails, this secondary "accident" story still ensures that China gets away with mass murder with no chance of retribution.
If you go to a Chinese owned website ( Tencent Holdings ) called "reddit" you will see a forum called "HermainCainAward" and another called "LeopardsAteMyFace".
These are places where supposed left-leaning people celebrate whenever anti-vax people die of Covid. This paired with the media being extremely condescending about vax topics
and right wing media comparing the vax initiatives to Nazism is the perfect propaganda campaign by China to get their most ardent western adversaries to kill themselves.
In the above forums, along with seeing the morbid celebrations of anti-vaxxer death, you will see them doing political calculations such as:
"70 million Trump voters, at least half are anti-vax so we get to enjoy the up to a potential of 30 million deaths! And thus be x less likely to see a Trump type candidate be elected."
If this were 4Chan it would be expected to see threads that root for massive death counts, but "reddit" is supposed to represent the mainstream attitude.
faetal on 10/9/2021 at 21:06
Nbore - who gives a fuck - where is the evidence that Coronavirus is man made? Or is changing the goal posts all you feel capable of.
Stop looking for "threads" and look for proof.
Dema - awesome post, and shocking too.
nbohr1more on 11/9/2021 at 02:03
Quote Posted by faetal
Nbore - who gives a fuck - where is the
evidence that Coronavirus is man made? Or is changing the goal posts all you feel capable of.
Stop looking for "threads" and look for proof.
Dema - awesome post, and shocking too.
So you are perfectly fine that China is fueling a targeted anti-vax propaganda campaign?
Starker on 11/9/2021 at 03:20
Quote Posted by demagogue
But that's not why I'm posting. I'm posting because of (
https://www.facebook.com/JamesTHarrisMedia/posts/4488487901228844) this shit. (Quick version: Biden's vaccine mandate is literally like 1930s Germans complying with nazis.) It's of course a grossly offensive analogy. But the sheer conviction of most of that comment thread that the US is becoming nazified is insane. The almost mathematical irony to the whole thing is that I am so sure the people posting in that thread in that way are exactly the personality types that would have complied in 1930s Germany. They fall for propaganda faster than a Trump casino falls to the ground when hit by bankruptcy & demolition.
Texas has now turned its citizens into bountyhunters on women getting or intending to get an abortion past 6 weeks of pregnancy (before many even know they are pregnant) or anyone who helps or intends to help them in some way and that's the Orwellian nightmare? Employers requiring their workers to get a safe and FDA approved vaccine? Funny how the hospitals are full of people who are unvaccinated or took horse dewormer and not people suffering from vaccine complications. God forbid someone actually does something against a deadly pandemic instead of fighting against prevention measures and hoping it will soon disappear like a miracle. The insanity of Branch Covidians never ceases to amaze.
And the performative assholery of Republicans is as staggering as ever (bolding mine):
One can only wonder where all this insanity is going. At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if they start touting snake bites as a cure next.
fett on 11/9/2021 at 06:34
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
China has a larger population than the rest of the world. If they are partially impacted by their own bio-weapon the collateral damage will be acceptable compared to the damage they can do outside China.
The official paperwork around this affair are just window dressing so they can frame this attack as an "accident:. The first firewall against understanding the attack is to convince the world that it occurred naturally.
Once that fails, this secondary "accident" story still ensures that China gets away with mass murder with no chance of retribution.
If you go to a Chinese owned website ( Tencent Holdings ) called "reddit" you will see a forum called "HermainCainAward" and another called "LeopardsAteMyFace".
These are places where supposed left-leaning people celebrate whenever anti-vax people die of Covid. This paired with the media being extremely condescending about vax topics
and right wing media comparing the vax initiatives to Nazism is the perfect propaganda campaign by China to get their most ardent western adversaries to kill themselves.
In the above forums, along with seeing the morbid celebrations of anti-vaxxer death, you will see them doing political calculations such as:
"70 million Trump voters, at least half are anti-vax so we get to enjoy the up to a potential of 30 million deaths! And thus be x less likely to see a Trump type candidate be elected."
If this were 4Chan it would be expected to see threads that root for massive death counts, but "reddit" is supposed to represent the mainstream attitude.
Sigh. I've tried to be diplomatic. I really have.