☣ Coronavirus ☣ - TTLG Forums

SubJeff on 12/5/2020 at 15:26

Imma chime in once more.

Last time.

lowenz, I appreciate that you're interested in this. You've also posted a lot of links and text from reputable sources. That's fine, ordinarily I'd be in favour of it. This isn't the issue though.

The issue, for me, is your interpretation of what you are posting, which is often incorrect in subtle but obvious ways. Trust me on this - go and do a physiology degree and come back to read what you've written. It's almost there but it's off target enough to be completely incorrect. A simple example is your seeming insistence that this virus is special somehow because it's not the virus that kills you. I've news for you - it' not the virus in any viral disease that kills you. It's the effect of the virus. HIV wrecks your immune response (in a completely different way to Covid btw). Ebola also causes clotting that results in tissue ischaemia - Covid isn't special in that respect - and causes bleeding and widespread inflammation. You present the Covid data like it's special. It's not. It's just new, with emerging effects. The first time scientists encountered and examine HIV, Ebola, SARS, MERS, bird flu, swine flu, it was the same - new stuff being discovered, people saying "ooooh, I found out if I use normal recruitment methods with these ventilated patients X happens".

The reason it's all in the news is because this is a pandemic. Do you remember ANY of the information that came out during SARS, MERS etc?

And your advice to dema re: ECG etc. Even I wouldn't suggest that, because I'm not there, I can't see him nor examine him nor take a full history. I'd stop at "see a doctor". I've worked with doctors all across Europe, including Italy, and I'm pretty sure they'd have pretty much the same advice.

This isn't an attack, it's just information. Don't take it badly. When you first started posting about the pathophysiology and the emerging research I though it was cool.

lowenz on 12/5/2020 at 17:43

Quote Posted by raph

Lowenz, I put you on ignore what must be a full month ago now. It's got little to do with the material, you just come off as an insufferable twat. Apparently that hasn't changed much. So please do yourself a favor, read the room and learn some fucking manners.

And you must say this to all.

LOL, keep ignoring, not a problem!

lowenz on 12/5/2020 at 17:47

Quote Posted by Gryzemuis

Man, I was only trying to help you. Trying to help you understand what is going on here. Why people react the way they do. And yes, those 2 arguments I posted are real arguments. Of course is truth not about democracy. But in any circumstance, the chance that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, is often pretty slim. Think about that.

If you insist on proving that you are right, and everybody else is wrong, you will only make everyone think you are a clown. The more you try to defend yourself, the deeper you will sink into your swamp. There is no way you can win this. If you don't want to learn, the result will be that a) everybody puts you on ignore, or b) you'll be banned from TTLG for being a nuisance who doesn't list to advice.

Being right or wrong doesn't matter anymore. It probably didn't matter even at the beginning. This about how your present your posts. Who cares if someone "attacked you". If you have any self-confidence, what do you care if someone on the Internet disagrees with you ? Why insist in going into full battle-mode ?

Heck, I suggested you to not use underlines or bold anymore. So you won't look like a clown. What do you do ? Post with underlines and bold. What can I say ?

"Win" ? There's nothing to win or to approve, I was accused to spread misinformation. It's NOT about "me", it's NOT about "winning" and definitively it's NOT about the issue (?) with "bold" and "underline".

lowenz on 12/5/2020 at 17:52

Quote Posted by Starker

That's not what you're doing, though? You're selectively presenting information about a complex topic that has many unknowns and that the best experts are still in the process of figuring out and effectively going, "See? What did I tell you!? See? I was right all along!" and so on.

Only because I was accused suddenly of "misinformation". It's not about my ego, it's about the accusation moved from nowhere "Hey this guy IS like the conspiracy baddies, no, it's WORSE! Kill him with Dunning-Kruger effect!"

lowenz on 12/5/2020 at 17:59

Quote Posted by SubJeff

A simple example is your seeming insistence that this virus is special somehow because it's not the virus that kills you. I've news for you - it' not the virus in any viral disease that kills you. It's the effect of the virus. HIV wrecks your immune response (in a completely different way to Covid btw). Ebola also causes clotting that results in tissue ischaemia - Covid isn't special in that respect - and causes bleeding and widespread inflammation. You present the Covid data like it's special. It's not. It's just new, with emerging effects. The first time scientists encountered and examine HIV, Ebola, SARS, MERS, bird flu, swine flu, it was the same - new stuff being discovered, people saying "ooooh, I found out if I use normal recruitment methods with these ventilated patients X happens".

Man, you think I'm stupid? I simply put the focus from "SARS2 infection / oh it's the virus!!111" to the "Covid-19" as a systemic syndrome due NOT ONLY to the infection. Simple as that.
Of course every virus can do this, it's why I've posted the link about the Kawasaki similitaries to the Covid-19: cause the problem is NOT limited to the infection process OR the respiratory aspect (and there's no infection->pneumonia direct implication, cause we're talking about an interstitial pneumonia, tipically an autoimmune disease such Covid-19 seems to be on top of the SARS2 infection) but way more extended and it was the very same thing I was saying from the beginning.

But some people didn't even know about this, so it's why I've said "it's not the virus that kills you".

Pyrian on 12/5/2020 at 18:53

And FFS edit or multiquote instead of posting four times consecutively.

Renzatic on 12/5/2020 at 20:39

Quote Posted by lowenz

And you must say this to all.

LOL, keep ignoring, not a problem!

Low, you've disrupted this conversation enough. It's time for you to bow out gracefully.

heywood on 12/5/2020 at 21:45

Thanks, the thread hogging can get obnoxious.

Switching topics to the US/CC comparison, I think it's fair. Although it's mixing data from countries with different responses, different levels of testing, and differences in counting, we have the same variability from state to state here in the US.

However, I expect bigger differences between the US and Europe to emerge in the summer. Most European countries seem to have accepted the need for stay at home orders and business closures, and waited until they were on the tail end of this wave before re-opening. But over here, 40% of the population never took it seriously in the first place. So we have some states where the closures and stay at home orders have been effective in slowing the virus down to the point where it can be contained via testing and contact tracing. But then we have other states where the daily counts of new cases and deaths are still growing, and some of those states (like mine) are re-opening anyway.

In my state (NH), the closures were fairly limited, and we're ending them early. As of yesterday 11 May, shopping malls re-opened, along with barbers, salons, and dentists. Restaurants (which have been doing take-out) will be serving customers again for outdoor dining on Mon, 18 May. That just leaves bars, theaters and other entertainment venues, and schools remaining to officially re-open. But my biggest worry is about getting kids together again. As any parent knows, kids are potent virus spreaders, and wherever they congregate can become a hot spot. Schools will remain closed through the end of this academic year in June. But that's when camps and other summer child care programs start up, and I expect most will open on schedule a month from now. We still have untraceable community spreading going on, and we're still not testing every potential case, so I think that bringing the kids together again is just inviting a return to exponential case growth. It doesn't help that half of my town seems to think they don't need to wear any face covering or take other precautions in public.

So I think that the re-opening will fail in at least half of the country if not more, and people will have to choose between going back under quarantine or dooming themselves to fight one outbreak after another for the next couple of years. I also think the long term economic impact of a continued malaise will be much greater than a short term strict closure to bring the virus back into containment. We've fallen victim to the false dichotomy of virus containment vs. economic recovery. The best thing you can do for economic recovery is to get the virus under control as quickly as possible.

I congratulate the countries who are getting this done. There's at least a dozen countries with modern economies who are down to managing just a handful of new cases per day. And if current trends continue, 6-8 of the major G20 economies will have reached that point by the end of May. And there will be another 6-7 who are still stuck in the first wave of the pandemic, including the US and UK. The former group will be taking global market share from the latter.

SubJeff on 12/5/2020 at 21:54

Quote Posted by lowenz

Man, you think I'm stupid? I simply put the focus from "SARS2 infection / oh it's the virus!!111" to the "Covid-19" as a systemic syndrome due NOT ONLY to the infection.

Well here we are - it IS only due to the infection. This is like saying HIV related malignancy isn't due to the infection. It is, but just by circuitous process.

I never said you were stupid.

Quote:

Of course every virus can do this,

Actually every virus can't. This is wrong.

Quote:

and there's no infection->pneumonia direct implication

But there is, and a clear one at that. This is incorrect.

Quote:

cause we're talking about an interstitial pneumonia

That's irrelevant.

Quote:

tipically an autoimmune disease such Covid-19

But Covid isn't an autoimmune disease. By definition - it's an acquired infection. It affects the immune system but it's not an autoimmune disease.

Every one of your posts on this can be dissected like this, and that's the problem. It's almost right, but not quite. This is a specific type of fact mismatch. It's like, ahem, saying ice cream is nice because it makes your tongue cold and unhappy and then the sugar crystals, which are spiky, tickle your tongue and make it laugh and that difference from being unhappy to laughing is what is nice about it. It's true that ice cream is better cold, it's true that the sugar contributes to the nice taste on your tongue (and that the crystals would be spiky if you look at them under a microscope). It's even true that taste sensation makes you feel good, just like laughing. But really, it's completely incorrect.

Sulphur on 13/5/2020 at 06:07

I want to note that in the middle of all of this, I echo Tocky's feelings. I'm happy to hear that our folks who've gone through shit with this virus are okay, or getting there - dema, and yes, you too, lowenz. Putting communication and philosophical issues aside for the moment, I'm glad people are still with us, no matter our differences.