Trance on 19/12/2018 at 04:08
A bump stock is allowing the trigger to be pulled multiple times in rapid succession. The finger isn't flexing, no, but the trigger is being pulled and released repeatedly.
Tocky on 19/12/2018 at 04:19
No. The action of the gun moving is still causing the trigger to click home only as long as pressure is being applied. Once finger pressure is released it stops. The finger pressure is exactly the same as with ordinary machine guns. It has to be constant.
Tocky on 19/12/2018 at 04:25
None of this matters as Trump is also owned by the NRA. Have we forgotten all the ideas he had after the Florida nightclub shooting? The NRA rushed in for a "meeting" and suddenly he shut his mouth. I feel another meeting coming on.
Oops. I meant Florida school shooting. There are so many I got mixed up.
Trance on 19/12/2018 at 04:48
Quote Posted by Tocky
No. The action of the gun moving is still causing the trigger to click home only as long as pressure is being applied. Once finger pressure is released it stops. The finger pressure is exactly the same as with ordinary machine guns. It has to be constant.
A trigger pull is a mechanical action. One trigger pull is the trigger moving to the rear, with all the mechanical consequences that follow, and the trigger being released back to its forward position. A bump stock makes this action happen multiple times. This is in contrast to a machine gun, where the trigger is pulled back, stays back, and multiple rounds are fired before the trigger moves forward again. The pressure exerted by the finger is not a factor in regards to the relevant laws.
That difference is the whole reason bump stocks exist, to achieve the same practical effect while circumventing the laws regulating machine guns. There's a lot of that sort of shenanigans going on in the gun industry.
Pyrian on 19/12/2018 at 05:02
Quote Posted by Trance
The pressure exerted by the finger is not a factor in regards to the relevant laws.
Well that's incredibly stupid. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it
is incredibly stupid.
Tocky on 19/12/2018 at 05:57
Quote Posted by Trance
A trigger pull is a mechanical action. One trigger pull is the trigger moving to the rear, with all the mechanical consequences that follow, and the trigger being released back to its forward position. A bump stock makes this action happen multiple times. This is in contrast to a machine gun, where the trigger is pulled back, stays back, and multiple rounds are fired before the trigger moves forward again. The pressure exerted by the finger is not a factor in regards to the relevant laws.
That difference is the whole reason bump stocks exist, to achieve the same practical effect while circumventing the laws regulating machine guns. There's a lot of that sort of shenanigans going on in the gun industry.
I know law makers aren't big on logic but it is the same function exactly. Pressure applied to the same degree while the machine does all the other work. It even works on the exact same principle. The gas causes a backward motion internally on a regular machine gun which triggers the firing mechanism over and over until pressure on trigger is released. With a bump stock the same applies only on the outside casing using the whole gun as the same function that the internal one has on a regular machine gun. Expulsion of gas causes a backward motion of a gun part while the trigger is depressed. Perhaps an engineer could explain it in layman's terms to the politicians so they could understand but I doubt it would matter. The NRA OWNS them. Their lawyers can sling so much bull also that it would fool most folks except for those who really do understand mechanics but as I said lawmakers aren't big on logic.
catbarf on 19/12/2018 at 14:32
Quote Posted by Tocky
I don't get it. First you post "Machine guns are defined in the 1934 NFA as any mechanism that allows firing more than one round per trigger pull; bump-fire stocks don't circumvent that and the ATF confirmed as such every time they were sent for evaluation." Which supports exactly what I said. One trigger pull. The recoil keeps the bullets firing by moving the whole gun instead of an internal action but with the exact same principle. One pull and multiple firing until the finger is released.
Trigger is pulled. One shot. Trigger is released. Repeat.
To try to keep up with the various workarounds, ATF has had a long-standing policy that semi-automatic operation requires a single 'mechanical operation' for each round fired, so as to keep to the original wording of the 1934 NFA. This has created a situation where (
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/) a shoelace can become a machine gun, but the operation of a bump-fire stock is consistent with ATF's allowable products and they issued multiple rulings to that effect.
If you really want to get technical- no, it's not the same function as actual automatic fire. Automatic fire uses a sear tripped by the bolt returning to battery, which releases the hammer without any action on the part of the user. As long as you hold the trigger, it fires, and holding the trigger is the only input required for full-auto to function. In contrast, bump-fire stocks are a gimmick where the operator has to push forward on the gun at a consistent pressure to move the entire weapon and repeatedly cycle the single-shot trigger. Because the user must perform an external second action in order to re-fire the gun, ATF considers it a separate mechanical operation. If you add a spring to a bump-fire stock so that it can do this on its own,
then ATF rules it a machine gun, because then it no longer requires any additional input to fire multiple times.
Convoluted, unclear, overly specific, missing the forest for the trees? Sure. Pass a law to create a new definition of 'machine gun' that includes bump-fire stocks and can be clearly understood and enforced. Unelected officials having the power to suddenly reinterpret the law, decide that previously-confirmed-legal devices are actually illegal, and possessing one will earn you ten years in federal prison, is
not how this is supposed to work. At the very least, there are good reasons why law enforcement agencies should not be the ones effectively deciding what is or isn't legal, let alone changing that decision in contradiction of existing legal interpretations and their own technical assessments.
You can easily bump-fire a rifle by hooking your thumb through a belt loop and firing from the hip. If a shoelace can legally become a machine gun, can a belt loop? Won't know until someone gets prosecuted for it. Meanwhile, because what we have here is an arbitrary policy reclassification on a specific product rather than a consistent law, (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVilKKiiHnA) binary triggers and (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jif4Wo0LDX8) trigger cranks remain readily available.
Quote Posted by Tocky
Also I find it somewhat disingenuous to claim you want the legislature to create a new law when everyone knows they are owned by the NRA and will never displease their masters.
NRA's opposed bump stocks ever since the Vegas shooting. They're not an obstacle to legislative action. I suspect the reason it didn't go that way is more that Trump and Congressional Republicans don't want to be seen writing and passing a gun control law.
Tocky on 19/12/2018 at 15:43
Quote Posted by catbarf
Trigger is pulled. One shot. Trigger is released. Repeat.
Not true. Trigger is not released. Pressure is constant or else it would not fire. The gun moves back and forth but if there was no pressure constantly the firing would cease. It would push the finger out of the way on the return instead of depressing the mechanism again. It's a fine line but there it is. The pressure is constant. It is not released. If it were released then the weapon would stop and stopping is not the function of a bump stock. If it were then the point would be moot.
If congress wants to do extra paper work and the NRA really WILL let them do it then fine but the case is there for no extra work required. And yes technically it is still the pushback of expelled gas which operates any automatic including bumpstock and mere semantics where along the chain of causation the action is performed. It is still constant trigger pressure and moving machinery caused by the expelling of gas. As a matter of fact your explanation of returning bolt emphasizes that. It matters not whether it is the whole machine moving or one piece of it.
jkcerda on 19/12/2018 at 15:57
Quote Posted by Tocky
Good luck with that because it is more of a reclassification to machine gun. Perfectly reasonable to do so under the definition of a machine gun. The whole gun doesn't even have to be confiscated.
Tocky, if your 67 mustang was reclassified as a gross polluter and you were told to destroy it w/o any compensation what would you tell the GOVT??? thank you.