Tocky on 21/9/2022 at 14:46
It's true. Evangelicals are becoming more cult like all the time and we have seen where cults lead. The banning of books is also a mind control method.
Dia on 22/9/2022 at 17:17
I swear, you just can't make this shit up!!!
“There doesn’t have to be a process as I understand it,” Mr. Trump said.
“If you’re the president of the United States, you can declassify, just by saying ‘it’s declassified,’ even by thinking about it,” the ex-president said.
He elaborated that sending documents from the White House is declassifying them.
“You’re sending it to Mar-A-Lago or to wherever you’re sending it. There doesn’t have to be a process. There can be a process, but there doesn’t have to be. You’re the president, you make that decision, When you send it, it’s declassified. I declassified everything,” he said, stressing the last word for emphasis.'Omg.
(
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/21/trump-insists-president-can-declassify-even-thinki/)
RippedPhreak on 22/9/2022 at 18:46
This is actually true. The relevant cases include
Armstrong v Bush, 721 F. Supp. 343 (D.D.C. 1989): (
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/721/343/1420019/) https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/721/343/1420019/
and
Judicial Watch, Inc. v. Nat'l Archives & Records Admin., 845 F. Supp. 2d 288, 297 (D.D.C. 2012): (
https://casetext.com/case/judicial-watch-inc-v-natl-archives-records-admin) https://casetext.com/case/judicial-watch-inc-v-natl-archives-records-admin
In
Armstrong Judge Richey held:
“During his term of office, the President may dispose of those of his Presidential records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value.” Id. § 2203(c). If the Archivist thinks it advisable, he may notify Congress of the President's intent to dispose of the records; and if the Archivist notifies Congress, the President must submit the disposal schedules to the appropriate congressional committees and wait sixty days before destroying the records. Id. §§ 2203(c), 2203(d). The PRA gives neither the Archivist nor the Congress the authority to veto the President's decision to destroy the records.”
Judicial Watch quotes
Armstrong and Judge Jackson adds:
“Since the President is
completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office, it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records.”
Judge Jackson ruled that
a president's discretion on what are personal rather than official records is far-reaching and solely his, as is his ability to declassify or destroy records at will.“Under the statutory scheme established by the Presidential Records Act, the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President's term and
in his sole discretion.”
A decision to challenge a president's destruction of Presidential records lies solely with the National Archives and is not subject to judicial review. The Presidential Records Act does not even allege that the National Archives may do so for records the President deems to be personal. Even if the National Archives were to challenge the president's decision (in this case it seems that they are), and the attorney general were to initiate an enforcement act, it would be a civil procedure and carry no criminal penalty. No one goes to jail.
The records Trump held at Mar-a-Lago were both declassified by him and deemed personal by him. Moreover, both declassification and deeming a record personal are solely and wholly within the president's discretion: a document is declassified when he says so, as he says so, and no one gets a veto on that. It is not something he has to prove.
So TL;DR: There's no way Trump can be prosecuted for any of this. It's solely a political play to smear his name before the midterms (and anyone associated with him).
Starker on 22/9/2022 at 21:50
Too bad the relevant laws in this case that were cited in the search warrant say nothing about the documents being classified or not, only that they contain defence information. Such as, y'know, nuclear secrets. These weren't just the some assorted souvenirs, there were apparently documents deemed sensitive enough to be only allowed to viewed in a specially built facility under special procedures. And he refused to give them back, deceived the authorities, and hid them, all the while he was no longer a president, but an ordinary citizen.
RippedPhreak on 22/9/2022 at 21:58
Quote:
they contain defence information. Such as, y'know, nuclear secrets.
No one actually believes that except the Rachel Maddow-level sensationalist grifters. And if they exist, let's see them, with a minimal sea of black redactions. I'm guessing that won't happen.
Quote:
all the while he was no longer a president, but an ordinary citizen.
If he took documents and declassified them, he doesn't have to give them back because the clock hit midnight Jan 21st, 2021 and his coach turned into a pumpkin. If he declassified them as President, then he gets to keep them - aside from the archivists initiating PRA procedures as per the linked legal cases.
Starker on 22/9/2022 at 22:23
You don't just get to keep secret documents because you declassify them. They are still the property of the United States.
And you don't just have to take my word for it -- the recent 11th circuit court ruling said as much (bolding mine):
Quote:
(
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/11th-circuit-stay-in-mal-search/47da7e465ec35ca1/full.pdf)
For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings. Classified documents are marked to show they are classified, for instance, with their classification level. Classified National Security Information, Exec. Order No. 13,526, § 1.6, 3 C.F.R. 298, 301 (2009 Comp.), reprinted in 50 U.S.C. § 3161app. at 290-301. They are “
owned by, produced by or for, or . . . under the control of the United States Government.” Id. § 1.1. And they include information the “unauthorized disclosure [of which] could reasonably be expected to cause identifiable or describable damage to the national security.” Id.§ 1.4. For this reason, a person may have access to classified information only if, among other requirements, he “has a need-to-know the information.” Id. § 4.1(a)(3). This requirement pertains equally to former Presidents, unless the current administration, in its discretion, chooses to waive that requirement. Id. § 4.4(3).
Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.
Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents. See Doc. No. 97 at 2-3., Sept. 19, 2022, letter from James M. Trusty, et al., to Special Master Raymond J. Dearie, at 2-3.
In any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.
Starker on 22/9/2022 at 22:41
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
No one actually believes that except the Rachel Maddow-level sensationalist grifters. And if they exist, let's see them, with a minimal sea of black redactions. I'm guessing that won't happen.
According to the (
https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=22131380-trump-warrant-unsealed) receipt for the property seized from the "Southern White House", there were documents marked as TS/SCI -- top secret sensitive compartmented information. This is only used for the most sensitive of information, something even people with top secret clearance don't have free access to, not for the president's meal plans or napkin scribblings.
Renzatic on 22/9/2022 at 23:05
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
If he took documents and declassified them, he doesn't have to give them back because the clock hit midnight Jan 21st, 2021 and his coach turned into a pumpkin. If he declassified them as President, then he gets to keep them - aside from the archivists initiating PRA procedures as per the linked legal cases.
If he declassified information that originated from outside his office, then it becomes the property of We, The People, not Trump's personal keepsakes. It still has to be archived.
Plus, your quoted laws above pertain to presidential records specifically, which, per the legal definition thereof...
"The term “Presidential records” means documentary materials, or any reasonably seg*regable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President's immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term— (A) includes any documentary materials relating to the political activities of the President or members of the President's staff, but only if such activities relate to or have a direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; but (B) does not include any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) of title 5, United States Code); (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified."
Very little of what Trump withheld could be considered such.
(
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/44/2201#2)
Pyrian on 23/9/2022 at 01:49
Nothing here but a cherry-picked misreading of the cited text, which goes on to say:
Quote:
[C]ourts are accorded the power to review guidelines outlining, what is, and what is not, a ‘presidential record' under the terms of the PRA. The PRA does not bestow on the President the power to assert sweeping authority over whatever materials he chooses to designate as presidential records without any possibility of judicial review.
Id. at 1290. The court stated that Armstrong I only barred judicial review of “creation, management, and disposal decisions” of the President and not “the initial classification of existing materials.” Id. at 1294.
His ludicrous claim that nuclear secrets are his personal records
are explicitly subject to judicial review in the very case you're citing, which renders all of that "management" argument utterly moot.
I am reminded of the old saying that coming up with bullshit is far less time consuming than cleaning it up.
heywood on 23/9/2022 at 03:37
I know a thing or two about how this works from my early career as a military officer in the '90s. The President, his cabinet level department heads, and anyone else he designates in the Federal Record have a statutory power called original classification authority, which means they can decide what information is classified and at what level. Everyone else follows security classification guides when marking documents they create. When a President decides to declassify something, they do it through an executive order. The responsible department then updates the applicable security classification guides and flows them out, usually with detailed instructions on how to remark and/or redact existing documents that were derived from the former classification guidance. At that point, all documents are still classified at the level they are marked at, until a subject matter expert has reviewed the document against the latest classification guidance and remarked it. Everything is always spelled out because people can lose their clearance and career for mishandling classified information, or end up in prison.
In this case, none of this happened. Trump's team couldn't produce any evidence, or any information at all suggesting he declassified these documents while in office. Once he's out of office, he has no power to do anything retroactively. And he made no such claim in response to the National Archives' request to have the documents returned. The National Archives basically gave him a free pass to return these documents without explaining himself, and he blew them off. That's when it was referred to DoJ.
At any point along the way, Trump could have said "Whoops, I don't remember how they got here. I didn't realize they were still here. Sorry about that! You can have them back. Are we good?" And it would have been dropped.
Any claim that these were personal records is laughably absurd. No judge is going to go along with that. Trump became a private citizen on 2021-01-20 and that's when his need to know and right to access to the documents ended. Per US code, Title 19, Chapter 93, he could be fined or sentenced up to 5 years of jail time for mishandling of classified information. And that's if you assume negligence and not intent.
The main focus of the investigation should be looking into motive. Was it just a matter of ignoring and disregarding the law, or did he take them for nefarious reasons? I never bought into the theory that Trump was groomed by Russian intelligence. I think he envied Putin's control over Russia, particularly with the media, and while in office he envied it badly. But I don't think he's a traitor. So I welcome the DoJ investigation to dig into why he retained these particular documents.