jkcerda on 11/11/2019 at 23:11
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Don't assume Trump's immunity from scandal as a given. He may seem to thrive on strife, but we've also almost seen him in a controlled environment, where the variables are in his favor. If the Republicans don't play their cards quite right, if he breaks down in front of a hostile investigation, it'll do a ton to hurt his chances with the independent voters, which are currently pretty wishy-washy on their prospects for him.
Remember, he doesn't just have to convince his base, he also has to convince those swing voters who previously signed on for Obama, but decided to give him a chance over Hillary in 2016. They're the ones who determine elections, not the core Democrat/Republican straight ticket voters.
These ensuing impeachment hearings, and the inevitable trial is one big wild card for everyone. The Democrats can very easily overplay their hand, and the Republicans can end up dying on a hill they shouldn't be anywhere near. There are no guarantees anyone will come out of this unscathed, up to and including Donald J. Trump.
I was going to say he is taking a big chance here but the genie is out of the bottle on what he tried to do through his retard lawyer , do wonder how things will fare among independents who actually get off their ass and vote. republicans all seem to have put their eggs on the trump basket so it might be an all or nothing deal for them.
Renzatic on 12/11/2019 at 01:37
Everything's so damn fucky right now, it's hard to say what anyone will do.
If Biden is guilty of corruption, he deserves to be brought to justice over it. Same as anyone. Thing is, what Trump did was never about bringing Biden's alleged crimes to light. Call it what it is: the United States acting on behalf of Donald J. Trump, strongarming a vulnerable foreign head of state into playing a part in a campaign publicity stunt gone absolutely haywire. The mere fact that the White House allegedly handed Volodymyr Zelensky a preapproved script to read on live TV announcing the Ukranian government's intentions to reopen the case into Burisma should tell you everything there is to know about everyone's intentions in this.
By the evidence presented, the whole shebang is a nigh on textbook example of bribery and corruption. I've grown a little too cynical to expect Trump to pay the consequences for it.
Starker on 12/11/2019 at 02:13
Quote Posted by caffeinatedzombeh
If you want to reduce birth rates the easiest way to do it is reduce infant mortality and reduce poverty, you don't go having 20 kids if you expect all of them to survive and you don't need to send them all out to work in the fields so that you have enough to eat.
Bingo. As a rule, the more children survive to adulthood, the less children will be born. War-torn places like Afghanistan and Congo have some of the highest birth rates in the world. But of course explaining this to a conspiracy-addled mind is an exercise in futility, as Tony has proven with his immediate jump to forced sterilisation.
Quote Posted by Renzatic
If Biden is guilty of corruption, he deserves to be brought to justice over it. Same as anyone. Thing is, what Trump did was never about bringing Biden's alleged crimes to light.
It's still not clear what the Bidens' crime was supposed to be. Being on the board of a foreign company when your father is a politician is skeevy as hell (though not by far as skeevy as having your children work in the White House), but not actually illegal, as far as I understand. And carrying out US policy is not illegal either.
jkcerda on 12/11/2019 at 02:22
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Everything's so damn fucky right now, it's hard to say what anyone will do.
If Biden is guilty of corruption, he deserves to be brought to justice over it. Same as anyone. Thing is, what Trump did was never about bringing Biden's alleged crimes to light. Call it what it is: the United States acting on behalf of Donald J. Trump, strongarming a vulnerable foreign head of state into playing a part in a campaign publicity stunt gone absolutely haywire. The mere fact that the White House allegedly handed Volodymyr Zelensky a preapproved script to read on live TV announcing the Ukranian government's intentions to reopen the case into Burisma should tell you everything there is to know about everyone's intentions in this.
By the evidence presented, the whole shebang is a nigh on textbook example of bribery and corruption. I've grown a little too cynical to expect Trump to pay the consequences for it.
Would NOT bother me one bit if BOTH Biden and trump ended up in jail
Renzatic on 12/11/2019 at 02:34
Quote Posted by Starker
It's still not clear what the Bidens' crime was supposed to be. Being on the board of a foreign company when your father is a politician is skeevy as hell (though not by far as skeevy as having your children work in the White House), but not actually illegal, as far as I understand. And carrying out US policy is not illegal either.
If Biden used his government connections to remove a troublesome prosecutor from investigating his son's new business interests, that'd be corruption.
Thing is, we all know the exact reasons why that particular prosecutor was removed from office. It was well advertised, well documented, and done entirely in the public eye. This wasn't something that Joe Biden did of his own volution, but via a bipartisan decision from congress, at the behest of multiple countries. The conflicts of interest that arose from it was investigated, and the most you accuse anyone of is cronyism on Burisma's part for hiring an underqualified Hunter Biden simply for his political connections.
Quote Posted by jkcerda
Would NOT bother me one bit if BOTH Biden and trump ended up in jail
Based on the above, it's hard to say why the Biden's deserve to be in jail. Using daddy's name, fame, and connections to hobnob and make some money isn't illegal. Biden using his powers of office to pressure Ukraine into removing a prosecutor would be illegal, if Biden had done it to benefit his son. But, like I said, (
https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/portman-durbin-shaheen-and-senate-ukraine-caucus-reaffirm-commitment-help) we know the reasons why. Trump's banking on the implications of Biden's involvement, not the facts as they happened.
Pyrian on 12/11/2019 at 04:46
Yeah, the butter emails thing definitely showed the power of overhyped mild scandal to match or even eclipse much more serious scandals in the public eye.
Starker on 12/11/2019 at 05:15
Hell, before that there was Benghazi and even before that there was Whitewater. It's been the Republican playbook for a long time.
Starker on 12/11/2019 at 05:33
Time did an article on excuses that have been brought to defend Lord Dampnut's abuse of power:
Quote:
(
https://time.com/5724220/donald-trump-impeachment-defense/)
We've reached the part of this tired charade where even those who've tried to escape the obvious conclusion now know that the emperor has no clothes. The mounting evidence from career diplomats, and Trump's own political appointees, has laid bare his self-serving ploy in Ukraine.
Many people have become numb to this Administration's wrongdoing after almost three years of constant scandal. Some feel that no matter what Trump does, he'll never be held accountable. Why should they invest time in today's awful news, when it will give way in a few days or weeks without anything changing?
This is the challenge the Democrats face as they open public impeachment hearings this week. Can they get the country to pay attention? Can they produce a coherent narrative that will help people understand this most serious of Trump Administration debacles?
Trump has, per usual, thrown out a barrage of defenses, hoping something will stick. So far nothing has. Here are the key defenses he's tried and those he'll likely move on to next, and why they all fail.
[...]
Tony_Tarantula on 12/11/2019 at 14:59
Quote:
If Biden used his government connections to remove a troublesome prosecutor from investigating his son's new business interests, that'd be corruption.
Thing is, we all know the exact reasons why that particular prosecutor was removed from office. It was well advertised, well documented, and done entirely in the public eye. This wasn't something that Joe Biden did of his own volution, but via a bipartisan decision from congress, at the behest of multiple countries. The conflicts of interest that arose from it was investigated, and the most you accuse anyone of is cronyism on Burisma's part for hiring an underqualified Hunter Biden simply for his political connections.
The prosecutor testified under oath that he was removed to protect Burisma.
I've already outlined the (easily reproduced from public sources) timeline and the idea of everything being kosher and aboveboard requires believing in numerous "coincidences" all just being perfectly timed to line up events that made the Biden family rich with foreign policy decisions from Joe Biden.
Quote:
Based on the above, it's hard to say why the Biden's deserve to be in jail. Using daddy's name, fame, and connections to hobnob and make some money isn't illegal. Biden using his powers of office to pressure Ukraine into removing a prosecutor would be illegal, if Biden had done it to benefit his son. But, like I said, we know the reasons why. Trump's banking on the implications of Biden's involvement, not the facts as they happened.
So is a quid pro quo engagement where they get the aid and in exchange the Biden family gets a kickback.
Thing is we'll probably never know first hand because Unlike Trump, Biden was smart enough to travel over there in person and have a meeting far away from any recording devices.
Based on the timeline of events (the relevant parties sequentially having meetings in person, then immediately followed by appointing Hunter.
As much as I despise Glenn Beck, I did get talked into watching this summary and it's a very good outline (surpisingly for Glenn Beck) over some of the events I've already documented.
(
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1928356553933315)
tangent: it's amazing how much better any journalist gets once they get away from Fox News.
Quote:
Time did an article on excuses that have been brought to defend Lord Dampnut's abuse of power:
If it makes you feel better Don Jr. got booed off stage. The base is turning on them and you're seeing a huge conflict between the Boomer generation that adheres pretty strongly to Neocon ideals and the "Zoomers" that are America First and want America to focus on it's own problems first.
That said they'll probably still vote for him over any Democrat (Except Tulsi might split the Republicans due to her anti-war, anti-Israel stance) but a member of Trump's own family getting chased out of their own event is going to make it's way to the orange man himself and probably rattle him a bit.
Starker on 12/11/2019 at 16:29
On one hand...
1. The thing Burisma was probed for had to do with improper acquiring of licenses, not anything remotely connected to Hunter Biden's position on the board. There is not a single shred of evidence that Biden's son had done anything illegal or was in legal jeopardy at any point.
2. Getting rid of the prosecutor was not something Biden was doing on his own. He was carrying out the policy of the United States government. It was the position of the US, the EU, and many international and activist organisations that the guy had to go and despite what he himself claims, it was pretty much the consensus that the prosecutor had been far too lax on rooting out corruption.
3. The prosecutor was in fact fired months later, after IMF officials threatened to withdraw funding.
On the other hand...
1. Lord Dampnut illegally withheld military aid earmarked for Ukraine by the Congress. It was only released against the president's orders after the responsible officials (including John Bolton) concluded that they had no legal standing to withhold the money.
2. There is compelling evidence, including testimony by multiple credible witnesses, that Ukraine was pressured to both investigate the president's main political rival and to publicly announce the investigation.
3. Vindman testified that he tried and failed to add key details to the "transcript" of the president's Ukraine call where he says "I'd like you to do us a favour, though" in response to the Ukraine president saying they would actually really like to receive the military aid they were promised. Also, that "transcript" was placed on a highly secure server not meant for that purpose in order to restrict access to it.
4. The White House has impeded the investigation by ordering witnesses to not testify and refusing to hand over documents related to the investigation.