demagogue on 11/2/2024 at 03:23
@Qooper, lol, you're giving a fair shake to Trump on the same day he bragged about his refusal to respect the US's obligations to defend a NATO member if it's invaded. How would Finland's recent accession look if he gets reelected?
Edit: Sorry, even I was giving Trump too much credit before I did more research. What he (
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/politics/trump-russia-nato/index.html) actually said was that he'd "encourage" Russia to do “whatever the hell they want” to deadbeat NATO member states. :p
As for his economic record, note that he's a mercantilist, as in the 17th Century philosophy that all economic relations are zero sum and it's impossible for free trade to benefit both sides, a position that was already debunked in the late 1700s. I'm pretty sure he's literally incapable of understanding Ricardian economics. He thought cutting off trade with China, Mexico, and the EU, the largest market on the planet and the US's two largest trading partners, was or would be great for the US. (9_9) He thought Brexit was great for the UK. He did his damnedest to kill the US economy with the China trade war and his death-wish war against covid relief. Only the windfall from the Obama era cushioned the fall.
He'd love to see the EU and NATO collapse, and would do everything his power to do the deed if he could... I don't know if you appreciate how destructive his positions are, and what they'd mean for a country like Finland if he had any competence in governing, which fortunately he doesn't.
Edit2: I mean I don't want to discourage civil discourse with Vae. I'm all for open debate. I'm just saying if you wanted to have a civil discussion about the pros and cons of Trump, holy shit you picked a hell of a day to do it! XD
nemyax on 11/2/2024 at 10:38
How would you approach the problem of deadbeat freeloaders that your people have to kill and die for?
As for his stance on Russia, what I know for a fact is that with Trump in office, my country did not invade anywhere new. And on a couple of occasions, it was shown its place where it had invaded previously. Georgia and all of the worst Ukraine business happened when democrats were at the reins (with Biden in key roles throughout).
lowenz on 11/2/2024 at 12:23
Because Trump sees the politics only as power politics and he's prone to concessions about what he considers - what Mr Kushner and other suggest - unimportant for US direct economic interests, like Ukraine.
Not that democrats consider Ukraine important, but they must save the face of the "democracy" and "rights" narrative against the ones who tie them to 1) nationality or surrogates like "common history" as Putin does 2) success and fame
There's nothing to be happy in ALL the world with Trump, he represents the REAL weakness of the West (not LGBT, immigrants or whatever), the stupid narcissism based on economic prosperity bait.
Because for 1 thing Putin is perfectly right: the West IS weak, but not for the convenient reasons of russian narrative about weakness (they're same "reasons" of Mussolini here in '20s and '30s, "gay danger" included).
The West is weak because it cannot endure war on its soil.
War on its soil for the West is like kryptonite for Superman.
That's the silent unspeakable truth.
Qooper on 11/2/2024 at 12:38
Quote Posted by demagogue
@Qooper, lol, you're giving a fair shake to Trump on the same day he bragged about his refusal to respect the US's obligations to defend a NATO member if it's invaded. How would Finland's recent accession look if he gets reelected?
Would it have made you happy if I'd given him an unfair shake then? I didn't give him any kind of shake. It seems to me you read more into my post than was there. I wrote:
Quote Posted by Qooper
I'm from Finland and what happens in America right now will impact my country, because we have a long border with Russia.
EDIT: Wanted to respond to this part as well.
Quote Posted by demagogue
Edit2: I mean I don't want to discourage civil discourse with Vae. I'm all for open debate. I'm just saying if you wanted to have a civil discussion about the pros and cons of Trump, holy shit you picked a hell of a day to do it! XD
My intent is not to talk about Trump's pros and cons as much as it is to listen, learn and try to understand his supporters. The reason why I got interested in this topic right now of all times is that we have a presidential election here in Finland. But picking days and times to do things isn't one of my strongest suits :)
heywood on 11/2/2024 at 13:23
Quote Posted by nemyax
How would you approach the problem of deadbeat freeloaders that your people have to kill and die for?
As for his stance on Russia, what I know for a fact is that with Trump in office, my country did not invade anywhere new. And on a couple of occasions, it was shown its place where it had invaded previously. Georgia and all of the worst Ukraine business happened when democrats were at the reins (with Biden in key roles throughout).
Trump's policy toward Russia was appeasement. He was against NATO expansion and for reducing US expenditure on NATO and reducing US forces in Europe. Trump was also hostile to Ukraine. With Trump in office, a bigger strategy was possible, one of separating the US from Europe and eventually the US leaving NATO. Putin, Trump, and Xi all want the same thing. They want to sit at a table together and carve up the world, and they want to go down in history as the ones who made peace and brought order.
lowenz on 11/2/2024 at 13:24
The problem is that US are NOT concerned with "little players" in Europe AND UE (2 different things) like Finland or Sweden. For US Europe is UE+UK and UE=Germany and
maybe France (mainly 'cause of it's a nuclear power).
Curiously it's exactly what russian elites in their pseudo-'800s-racism see as
anglo-saxons (american+british+german people) as a "sea empire" vs the "land empire" represented by them (as descendents of
varangians and being the "heirs" of Byzantine Empire and so of Rome)
->(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard)
Just read the daily Medvedev's rants, they're the plain proof of their system of believes (well known since a century here, but russian elites made this "awesome discovery" - ahahah - in the '90s after the marxism evaporation when Evola and other far right philophers did take Russia cultural circles by storm, searching for new
foundational myths after Communism).
lowenz on 11/2/2024 at 13:31
Quote Posted by heywood
They want to sit at a table together and carve up the world, and they want to go down in history as the ones who made peace and brought order.
By sacrificing all the other little players "
one day they'll thanks us"......
nemyax on 11/2/2024 at 13:52
Quote Posted by heywood
Trump's policy toward Russia was appeasement.
I don't see it that way. Trump is no Reagan, but with someone like him as president of the US, Putin was too chickenshit to try anything bold. Not so with Biden and Obama.
It's plain to see if you look at the actions of Obama, Trump and Biden instead of taking their bullcrap at face value.
lowenz on 11/2/2024 at 14:24
Trump - if you really want to assign him some political positions he doens't even know as a word - is an isolationist, apart from Israel 'cause of Kushner and his ties.
He doesn't even know where Ukraine is :D For him "Ukraine=some shit about Hunter Biden I can exploit to win"
Of course he has the bussinessman approach, so divide et impera if you can, otherwise make concessions to the stronger player and side with him as along as it's convenient.
Tocky on 11/2/2024 at 16:49
Quote Posted by nemyax
I don't see it that way. Trump is no Reagan, but with someone like him as president of the US, Putin was too chickenshit to try anything bold. Not so with Biden and Obama.
It's plain to see if you look at the actions of Obama, Trump and Biden instead of taking their bullcrap at face value.
No. Putin was not chickenshit. Putin is a planner and a weigher. He does what he wants in his time. He has patience. With Trump it is exactly as heywood said, Putin was holding off invasion because he saw greater advantage in Trump working for the disbanding of NATO. Maybe they even had something worked out together. They had secret meetings where nothing was recorded, after all. Putin knew to hold off on Ukraine until Trump was voted out. Trump was a useful pawn capable of being manipulated. Putin had, after all, helped him win election with a deluge of pro Trump facebook posts and hacking of the DNC.
Now Putin wants Trump back in because he knows Trump will withhold aid to Ukraine and work for a deal where Russia keeps all captured territory. And you can hear in every word Trump says that is exactly what he will do. Putin knows Trump will fall right into his hands. It's calculating and nothing chickenshit about it.
