Nicker on 12/10/2022 at 11:58
Quote:
and
I don't know where I've ever endorsed forcing a 13 year old rape victim to risk her life delivering
That might be because you refuse to follow your
abortion is murder argument to one of its actual results.
To flip your own organ harvesting question, how would you feel if Big Gubmint (while pretending to be small gubmint) forced you to relinquish non vital organs and tissues from your own body to help people in greater need for them?
Tocky on 12/10/2022 at 12:32
Quote Posted by Draxil
That's the second time you've said that, and I don't know where I've ever endorsed forcing a 13 year old rape victim to risk her life delivering--care to quote that for me? For someone that claims to follow science, you sure seem to believe a lot of half-baked pseudoscience ideas. A zygote is the beginning of human life, which you admit. Logically, that which possesses human life is human. Humans develop in stages, Tocky--zygote, embryo, fetus are the first stages. They're all human. Jump through whatever kind of twisted hoops in your head you need to to justify eliminating them, or be honest like Dia--they're human but they're not as important as the mother's autonomy, and up to the point of birth the mother should have the right to terminate them. I have a lot more respect for the honesty of Dia's and the Planned Parenthood's position--it is simply giving more value to the mother's autonomy than to the life of the child. PP stopped arguing that the unborn were just clumps of cells or not human a long time ago, by the way, because they realized it was a losing argument and the science was against them. Their arguments mirror Dia's, now. Yours are decades out of date.
The most recent time you have said you were for banning all abortions was in post 16845- "I don't think the GOP necessarily wants to ban all abortions, they're squishy. I do."
I don't believe in any Dr. Oz pseudoscience. I have stated things I have no explanation for. I didn't even attribute them to an invisible sky daddy. I still search for answers. True ones. In the meantime they are fun stories. I'm not going to make a religion out of them to cause havoc in the world.
A zygote is to a human as a car frame is to a car. It is not at a point it can be called what it is going to be. I don't know how I can be any simpler for you. In the early stages it is literally a clump of cells. Dividing cells are all it is in the first days. Most anti abortion people are against all abortion and admit it. You do at times but then pull it back when convenient. No plan B to stop the cells dividing even.
I'm not the one twisting anything. Look in the mirror.
Jason Moyer on 12/10/2022 at 12:46
Quote Posted by Starker
Who outside of Republican fantasies "supports" abortion up to birth? Strawman much?
I support it until age 18. And again after age 50.
Tocky on 12/10/2022 at 14:05
Quote Posted by Draxil
Logically, that which possesses human life is human. Humans develop in stages, Tocky--zygote, embryo, fetus are the first stages. They're all human.
This part still bothers me because it goes to the core of the dishonesty on the right. Logically that which possesses human life is NOT human. A drop of blood, though it is a human drop of blood, is not a human. That is where I attempted to argue before. At what point does the embryo become human? What are the defining characteristics? I was trying to be honest in that discussion on another thread and at first you were too. When I saw you were falling back on dogma and putting words in my mouth I shut down any argument. I saw you were not looking for truth.
Reply back if you want but if it's only to insult or claim an unformed human is the same as a formed one I just don't see the point of arguing. It's just more scattered nit picking to support a conclusion jumped to in order to support a stance taken whether right or wrong.
heywood on 12/10/2022 at 14:27
Knowing When Life Begins is important to religious people because they believe that's when a soul is created. It's a religious argument that nobody will ever win, and it shouldn't be germane. A religious belief that something magical happens at fertilization should not be the basis for limiting people's reproductive rights.
Starker on 12/10/2022 at 14:49
Right. The very fact that there is development means there's something to develop into. An unfertilised egg can become a human even without a sperm cell, but that doesn't mean it is human, only that there is a possibility for it to become one. Same goes for a fertilised egg / zygote. There is no point where science can draw a line where it is non-human or human. It's a cell. To pretend that there is such a line is a matter of subjective belief. And it's dishonest to say it's all the same human life when we never treat it the same. We don't hold a funeral for fertilised eggs that fail to implant in the uterus.
Tocky on 12/10/2022 at 15:37
If a soul can be proven to exist then I will demur argument about conception being a time of human existence. There is an interesting story written by Frederick Pohl about this very thing. If I can find it in my bedroom, bathroom, or livingroom libraries, I will post the name.
I sort of disagree that there can't at least be a fuzzy line delineation between human and nonhuman by science. Before it was viability but now it's NO YOU CAN"T BECAUSE GOD SAYS YOU HEATHEN BABY KILLER to just flat out deny any abortion at any stage so naturally there is argument about that sort of control without reason stance. Religion has always been about control more than any other facet though. Come let us reason together? Not so much.
Tocky on 12/10/2022 at 16:03
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I support it until age 18. And again after age 50.
I take it you are between the ages of 18 and 50 and will slide the scale farther as you age then? LOL
heywood on 12/10/2022 at 16:05
It's all human though. The question is when, during development, should the fetus be treated as a person under the law, with rights separate from the mother? Viability is a reasonable standard for that, because it defines the point at which the fetus could potentially live outside of the womb.
I'm sure we'd all like to know at what point we become sentient and when we become self-aware, but we have no way of knowing that.
Tocky on 12/10/2022 at 16:10
Then I would argue we need to find a way. Until then we can default to viability.
