nemyax on 21/1/2022 at 10:08
I asked you to name a real place, and you looped back to Kropotkin's hobby writing. He didn't have experimental data at his time, and neither do you after all these years.
lowenz on 21/1/2022 at 10:09
Quote Posted by june gloom
social justice rants.
So you know "social justice" and "rights" are democracy control tools ("fight for our cause.....
vote for us!") of idealistic origin? It's really simple to magnetize people through them (as through prosperity promises "You too can be rich, wealth.....
vote for us!").
If you reject democracy you must reject these tools too (not the related aspirations, the juridical tools- > the "laws", the "rights", etc. )
june gloom on 21/1/2022 at 10:13
Quote Posted by nemyax
I asked you to name a real place, and you looped back to Kropotkin's hobby writing. He didn't have experimental data at his time, and neither do you after all these years.
Nah, see, here's the thing, I'm not going to do your legwork for you. You're explicitly here in bad faith, you've always been in bad faith, and I'm not going to waste my time on someone who prefaces "I want examples" by calling it fiction. Your literal first reply to me tonight is to namedrop a random struggling African nation, as if we couldn't possibly guess your ulterior motivation in doing so; why should I engage with you like you're someone worth engaging with?
Quote Posted by lowenz
So you know "social justice" and "rights" aspirations are democracy control ("fight for our cause.....vote us!") tools of idealistic origin?
If you reject democracy you must reject these tools too (not the related aspirations, the juridical tools)
lmao
lowenz on 21/1/2022 at 10:21
Quote Posted by june gloom
lmao
You can't
force "social justice" with no state or surrogates of the state.
You might obtain it as a long goal through anarchy but the
forcing is contradictory.
And yes, "social justice" as "race purity" is an idealistic construct to drag people around.
nemyax on 21/1/2022 at 10:31
Quote Posted by june gloom
Your literal first reply to me tonight is to namedrop a random struggling African nation
At least it's a real place, and it lets you see that democracy or autocracy or whatever "doesn't work at all" a lot better in some places than in others.
june gloom on 21/1/2022 at 10:45
Quote Posted by lowenz
You can't
force "social justice" with no state or surrogates of the state.
You might obtain it as a long goal through anarchy but the
forcing is contradictory.
And yes, "social justice" as "race purity" is an idealistic construct to drag people around.
Who is talking about forcing anything? You genuinely can't imagine people just being nice, just being not bigots, just avoiding the whole "being a dingdong" thing without having to be coerced into it by the state? States
like that shit.
Nicker on 21/1/2022 at 13:51
"Another one thinking I'm some kind of right-wing chud as if I haven't alienated half the people here with my social justice rants. "
No. I never said or implied that. You projected it. I think you are a defeatist and your nebulous solution is worse than the problem. Again, blaming democratic methods for human ethical failings is a category error. It's like blaming a car for the bad driver behind the wheel.
"And I think democracy is self-defeatingly coercive. In what world is a government system where a majority of people -- or rather, the majority of people who vote, and excluding the ones who are barred from voting in one way or another -- make the decisions for everyone else not autocratic?"
Firstly because the word autocratic literally means a single person in charge. Perhaps you meant the tyranny of the masses, which is a real issue and one which modern democracies actively wrestle with and against which they do have some success.
In practical terms, if we don't at least chose our tyrants and have the ability periodically dismiss them, then we have unregulated tyranny which, in a very real sense, if far worse. At least democratic methods attempt and often succeed in protecting us from local tyrants.
You can passively reject tyranny all you want but it has no practical purpose and it's only result is more tyranny. It is a surrender to them.
"So I have no voice in this hell world, no agency. The best I, or anyone else, can do, is try to live in the machine, cooperate with small groups with mutual interests to achieve shared goals, and hope nobody tries to "democratize" us."
I hear your frustration and I hear you identifying the better side of human nature, which I did refer to earlier. It's just that, consensus rule is a form of democracy. The democratic systems of government we do have are an attempt to do the same on a larger scale. And for all its flaws, it is better than neo-feudalism, IMHO.
rachel on 21/1/2022 at 14:35
Yeah, to call democracy autocratic is a misnomer. It's not even tyranny of the masses because the masses don't have a say for fuck all, all things considered. Sure, it looks like democracy, but the reality is that it's more a plutocracy masquerading as a democracy, where no matter what candidate you vote for, what will be accomplished will be what the wealthy 0.01% elite wants.
France is a bit different but I don't feel represented either and I highly doubt I will vote in this year's elections. Macron can fuck off, the left is are a bunch of lemmings as disorganized as ever, no surprise there, and the right can die in a fire for all I care. I live abroad anyway and none of the programs give a fuck about us.
lowenz on 21/1/2022 at 15:54
Quote Posted by june gloom
Who is talking about forcing anything? You genuinely can't imagine people just being nice, just being not bigots, just avoiding the whole "being a dingdong" thing without having to be coerced into it by the state? States
like that shit.
Not if you deceive them with "social justice" (left), "race purity" (right), "prosperity" (liberal left&right) and all the other omni-present slogans.
There can not be "nice persons" in a democratic tension.
Problem is anarchy works at equilibrium point, not when you're in ANY OTHER society form. There's a really deep gap between functioning anarchy and today
polarizing systems giving (imposing to) persons their political identity and regulating their social relationships with the law and the rights.
It's not even related to specific "core values" of left and right, it's related to "
being regulated by the authorities protecting and promoting me".
Cipheron on 26/1/2022 at 20:32
I had to look something up on the Gateway Pundit and found this gem:
Quote:
Joe Biden Stops For Ice Cream as Russia's Invasion of Ukraine “Remains Imminent”
How dare the president *eat food* when we haven't defeated Russia yet. That alone tells you how desperate they are for "dirt" on Biden.
This reminds me of the time they criticized Obama for being posh because he likes mustard instead of ketchup on his burger.
