SubJeff on 4/11/2020 at 12:24
I don't disagree with you raph, but people vote for lots of reasons.
E.g. Business owners may realise that under a different government the tax changes will cripple them or even make them go under. And if they have kids to support...
Jason Moyer on 4/11/2020 at 12:26
I know plenty of people IRL who voted for Trump (supporting him is probably a stretch) even though they hate his social politics. I don't agree with them, but I can see where they're coming from. A lot of people voted for Trump in both elections for the same reason people are voting for Biden, i.e. they hate both of them and are going with the person they hate less. And to be fair to Trump, we haven't started a war in 4 years and his administration helped to get Israel recognized as a country by 3 of the 6 Arab nations that currently do so which is a pretty big deal. I personally think his achievements in foreign policy have been balanced by (probably more than balanced by) all of the terrible foreign policy things he's done, but I can see how people wouldn't agree with me. I bet less than 50% of the people who voted for the guy this year are in the GIT R DONE, I'M SCARED OF BLACK PEOPLE demographic. But taking a nuanced view of things isn't how politics work anymore. Lots of people mistakenly equate the stock market with the health of the economy, and others are legitimately worried that a Biden administration would cause them to lose their livelihood. Sure it's all fear mongering, but both sides fear monger in their own ways. If Biden wins, no one is taking anyone's jobs or guns away. If Trump wins, it's highly unlikely any marginalized groups are going to lose rights (it's pretty goddamn tough, and political suicide, to take rights away once you've granted them). Social progress doesn't give a shit about who has political power. Gay marriage was going to happen whether Obama was president or not. Transgendered rights are going to happen whether Trump or some other right wing loony are president or not. It is what it is.
Gryzemuis on 4/11/2020 at 12:29
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
We've had at least one atheist senator and a couple openly atheist congressmen.
Who ? I'm genuinely curious.
The last time I looked into this was maybe more than 10 years ago. At the time, there had been one congress-member that had openly said he didn't believe in god. But when asked about it specifically in an interview, he declared that he did believe in god (a Christian god, I assumed). But he just wasn't member of a specific church. He said he certainly was not an atheist. At the time there were jewish congress-members of course, but also muslim congress-member(s). Just no atheists. The joke at the time was: americans will vote an african-american into office, before they will vote for an atheist in congress.
SubJeff on 4/11/2020 at 12:29
Well said Jason.
Especially the last line. Ye gads!
On CNN, RIGHT NOW, they are talking about voters that are concerned about the radical left. I know I am. I think the Dems are far from that, but I can see why people might think otherwise.
Gryzemuis on 4/11/2020 at 12:31
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
They're not necessarily fascists, they just don't care if they're ruled by fascists.
Imho there's not much difference.
They voted Trump to be the Republican candidate.
They voted Trump into office.
At the time, you could argue that they were just stupid and didn't know what they were doing.
You can't use that excuse any more.
This time they willingly voted again to try and get a fascist as president.
Just like you said: if they had lived in Germany in 1930, they would happily vote for Hitler.
Of course the details are different now. But the general picture is very similar.
heywood on 4/11/2020 at 12:33
Republican voters are far more concerned about what they consider fascism from the Democratic party: making them wear masks, closing bars and restaurants, restricting their travel, restricting their Constitutional right to gather and assemble (unless it's a left wing protest, then its apparently OK), regulating their businesses, preventing them from developing their land, enforcing political correctness, taking their income and giving it to someone else, etc, etc. The fact that white supremacists have found a nice little home within the party and they have a party leader with fascist tendencies is something they find easy to dismiss, because they are not adversely affected by it. It has become a party of selfish people who lack empathy, who have been indoctrinated with the belief that government can't do anything good for them and is just a vehicle for delivering big bad socialism like they saw in Cuba, Venezuela, and the former Soviet Union. It's become a caricature of its former self.
Another aspect to it is China. China is a fascist country. They've seen us selling ourselves to China for the last 20 years, and are legitimately concerned about being pulled into a new China-dominated world order.
Jason Moyer on 4/11/2020 at 12:34
Some result updates:
Biden's lead in WI is still growing. 0.7% now with 92% ballots counted.
Trump's lead in MI is rapidly shrinking. It's quickly gone from over 4% to 0.5% with 86% reported, and still 1/3 of the vote left to be counted in Detroit.
I don't want to count my chickens but it would appear that Trump is toast, even if he somehow won PA and GA.
Gryzemuis on 4/11/2020 at 12:37
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
But taking a nuanced view of things isn't how politics work anymore.
And who's fault is that ?
Republican politicians, republican media, republican pundits, and for a large part Trump himself.
Step by step, he's making fascist politics acceptable.
Both the goals as the means to achieve them.
You might not realize it, because you are in the middle of it. But for a point of view from outside, you can't deny it anymore.
Jason Moyer on 4/11/2020 at 12:37
Quote Posted by SubJeff
On CNN, RIGHT NOW, they are talking about voters that are concerned about the radical left.
"Radical left" in this country is basically Social Democracy. You know, the Nordic model. The 4 happiest countries on earth. Healthcare that works. Labor that is fairly compensated. Quality education. Regulated capitalism. Equal opportunity. The "leftist violence" that happened this summer has, hilariously, mostly resulted in the arrests of Proud Boys and other false-flag fascists.
heywood on 4/11/2020 at 12:38
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Who ? I'm genuinely curious.
The last time I looked into this was maybe more than 10 years ago. At the time, there had been one congress-member that had openly said he didn't believe in god. But when asked about it specifically in an interview, he declared that he did believe in god (a Christian god, I assumed). But he just wasn't member of a specific church. He said he certainly was not an atheist. At the time there were jewish congress-members of course, but also muslim congress-member(s). Just no atheists. The joke at the time was: americans will vote an african-american into office, before they will vote for an atheist in congress.
Pete Stark is the only one I can think of who was openly atheist.
When I was living in MA, our House Rep was Barney Frank, who was agnostic.
