mopgoblin on 19/10/2020 at 07:24
Quote Posted by SubJeff
Why do you think men should not have a say in abortion policy?
Because it's not your bodies on the line, you'll never be affected by these policies in the same way women can be, and you can't offer anything to the discussion that we can't bring to it ourselves. Amongst ourselves, we already have all of the scientific, philosophical, ethical, and experiential perspectives covered. If, somehow, we were missing a fragment of one of these, we could always decide to ask for input at that point.
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Do you think white people should have a say in anti racism policy?
No, not unless invited. If black people, indigenous people, or people of colour feel like there are white people who do have unique perspectives to add (like, say, former racists who can discuss how they came to have those views and how they got over them), then I'm sure they'd ask for them, but honestly I suspect they already know.
The thing is, the man's perspective is everywhere in our society. It permeates society in ways that you mostly can't see unless you're not a man, and even then there are some ways it sneaks in that are quite hard to pick up on. It's like nuclear fallout, it gets into everything, and everyone, and creating places where it's reduced, never mind absent, is hard work. But that also means that for every version of it, there are women who know it inside and out, so we don't really gain anything from hearing it over again. Beyond what men show and tell us about yourselves with everything you say and do throughout society, girlfriends and wives and mistresses and sex workers are there when you say the things you never tell anyone else, and trans women have seen how men are and heard what you say when you think there are no women around too. There are woman experts in every field you can think of. As harsh as it may sound, there really is no form of knowledge you can offer us that we don't already have.
june gloom on 19/10/2020 at 07:31
Oh don't be silly, SubJeff, I've never known you to change your opinion on anything. You're not capable of it. And even if you did, you'd simply pretend you thought that way all the time, because your fragile ego cannot handle you ever being wrong.
Quote Posted by SubJeff
If you think defunding the police is simply "a change in status quo" and not a concerted push towards anarchy you've lost the plot. In the USA the police need reform, not removal. You can't actually believe in police defunding can you?! To what end? How do you see that planning out?
I do, because the role of police is to maintain the status quo for the capitalist ruling class through violence. They're not here to protect me. They're definitely not here to protect my black trans roommate, who they have repeatedly harassed. You? You're probably fine.
Google restorative justice if you want an idea of what an alternative to a reactive, punitive justice system would look like.
SubJeff on 19/10/2020 at 07:42
Dude, I've changed my mind on loads of things and been wrong about loads of things. That's life. We learn, we don't always get it right. I've conceded that I was wrong many times on here.
That's not the role of the police at all. That's a ridiculous overwoke take on it. The police are there to protect everyone from crime, simple as that. Harassing people is why they need reform, not defunding.
Restorative justice is a nice idea. It doesn't help you in the moment when you're being robbed or attacked though. I'd be up for a city wide pilot but where would you choose to be your test site and would you get consent from the population to remove the traditional police?
june gloom on 19/10/2020 at 08:33
lmao if you think cops are just gonna help me when i'm being robbed instead of showing up two hours late to arrest my roommate and shoot my neighbor's dog
SubJeff on 19/10/2020 at 09:36
If that's a real possibility, and not just your anti-establishment hyperbole (any other American TTLGers think that's anywhere near a reasonable expectation?), that's a problem with your police force.
I don't think anything like that would happen to me. I don't fear the police here in the same way, at all. And that goes for in Europe. Pre-covid I traveled to France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands regularly. Never ever worried about the police.
Have you ever actually dealt with the police?
june gloom on 19/10/2020 at 11:12
My god have you literally paid a single iota of attention to the news coming out of the US day after day for the last century? You cannot possibly be this ignorant without trying.
howeird on 19/10/2020 at 11:38
My mind imagines what will happen if Biden is elected. It pictures a Chinese Embassy style giant paper shredder outside the White House with a long line of Trump cabinet officials pushing four wheel carts full of boxed papers towards the shredder. Then later Biden officials finding stuff they forgot to shred.
SubJeff on 19/10/2020 at 12:16
Quote Posted by june gloom
My god have you literally paid a single iota of attention to the news coming out of the US day after day for the last
century? You cannot possibly be this ignorant without trying.
So you've never dealt with the police then? Got it.
I know there is a problem with US policing, but it's a cultural thing isn't it? You guys have police with guns and you can get guns. Part of the problem is the threat to life of the police. Of course there are loads of cases of police brutality and even murder, but there are also a lot of completely legit police actions.
I previously posted the vid where 2 police doing a traffic stop on a drunk guy were both shot, but as it's 2 white cishet male police being shot the overwoke like you don't care.
Harvester on 19/10/2020 at 13:09
Despite having read some stuff about it and watched some videos, for me it's hard to really understand how fucked up the police system in the USA is. I don't even know if the system is salvageable at this point to be honest. I hope there is still some chance of substantial reforms being executed and being effective. Starting with better training, because 3 months training is just ridiculous, police training is 3 to 4 years in the Netherlands.
I mean, if my house was robbed, I would have no qualms about calling the police. Not now when I live here alone, but also not last year when my girlfriend at that time, who is of Sri Lankan descent, lived here with me. I wouldn't worry for a moment they'd arrest her for some bullshit reason or be violent to her. I would be interested to know if Americans here think that it's possible to make reforms so that the system can get to that point, where a person like me with a black girlfriend living in the house could safely call the police without worrying. I'm less interested in the opinion of Europeans who state that Americans like june gloom are just overreacting. As Europeans, I don't think we can really fully understand this issue.
EDIT: we do have some problems here. For example, a black or Arab person with a high-end fancy car (think upper models of Audi, BMW, Mercedes) is going to get stopped now and then, because the officer wants to check the car is really theirs and is not bought with criminal money. This is racial profiling and it's bad and I make no excuses for it. But even these people, as much as it sucks to get stopped for owning a fancy car, don't have to fear for their lives like minorities in America.
SubJeff on 19/10/2020 at 14:32
Quote Posted by Harvester
Despite having read some stuff about it and watched some videos, for me it's hard to really understand how fucked up the police system in the USA is.
Yeah, me too. But I think we get told about every case and it's framed as if the police are wrong every single time. There have been a few cases that are clearly police being extremely brutal without good cause (George Floyd) but many where, given the status - potentially having their firearm taken off them and used against them - I'm not sure it would be reasonable for the police to do any different. I've seen multiple videos of resisting arrest, where people are questioning the lawfulness of their arrest. It seems like a common thing and it certainly isn't in the UK. You sort it out in court. The amazing thing is that given the litigious nature of the USA one would think that a wrongful arrest would be a nice ticket to payday for some of these people. Not so in the UK btw. They'll say "Yes yes old chap, we made a hash it. Teeeeeeerribly sorry. Now of you pop, like a good chap. (Bar's in the globe)."
There's been some good research on this. Sam Harris reported on a piece which was interesting but seriously flawed and criticised. Nevertheless, it shows that people are looking into it and the criticism of it were quite enlightening. The conclusion, iirc, was that minorities are indeed disproportionately manhandled by police, and (depending on where you live) likely to be seriously injured or wounded.
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For example, a black or Arab person with a high-end fancy car (think upper models of Audi, BMW, Mercedes) is going to get stopped now and then, because the officer wants to check the car is really theirs and is not bought with criminal money. This is racial profiling
Yep, happens in the UK too. There have been recent cases of an Olympian and even an MP (I think) having this happen to them. At least one of these cases is being investigated for police misconduct.
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my girlfriend at that time, who is of Sri Lankan descent... ...a black girlfriend
Bit confused here. Same/different person? Mixed race?
