mopgoblin on 18/10/2020 at 01:43
Quote Posted by SubJeff
I'm not a tranphobe. Stop being a dick.
Nah, I calls them like I sees them, and I saw that big thread (a couple of days after the fact) and the kinda stuff you were saying in there. Incidentally, I can confidently say that the vast majority of other women I know wouldn't have had a bar of it either, so that's not just some double-minus-nine thing. More than that though, a good while back I used to hold some of those same views I saw from you, and yeah, I was a transphobic jerk back then, so I can be pretty damn confident you're a transphobic jerk now.
SubJeff on 18/10/2020 at 08:08
This is where the political compass works - you, june and I are so close on that compass that it's the subtlety in our differences that can see seem a chasm.
I think transexuals should have all the rights everyone else has and should not be discriminated against or otherwise disadvantaged because they are transexual. Same with homosexuals. Same with any type of sexuality that isn't criminal or harmful to others.
How is that transphobic?
I think the same thing about all religions too - no one should be discriminated against or otherwise disadvantaged because of their religion. I think we can all agree on these things. It fits the compass readings after all.
In fact, I think anyone should be free to do and say whatever they want.
But all of this comes with a simple caveat - all of these freedoms must not encroach on or harm other people.
Homosexuality harms no one (other than the idiot sensibilities of certain stuffy (usually religious) conservatives). What people do in their bedroom is no one else's business. There is no effect on anyone else, so no real reason to object other than being a class A arsehole. Same with any religion. However, if there were a religion that specifically forbade you from hiring homosexuals that DOES harm other people and therefore I DO have a problem with that religion or more specifically - the people who practice that religion that way. Homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in Christianity. In the UK there's very few Christians who have a problem with homosexuality. They certainly don't go chopping people's heads of for it, and those that do discriminate often feel the weight of the law.
Simple.
june gloom on 18/10/2020 at 11:08
Mopgoblin is right: the political compass is deeply flawed and simplistic, because it does nothing to illustrate the yawning gulf between you and me/mopgoblin. And even if the compass wasn't flawed, -5.63 / -4.05 is nowhere remotely close to -8.63 / -9.03 (me) or -9.63 / -9.85 (mopgoblin). But we get a ton of bloviating from you regardless about how we're totally the same. No we are fucking not. On a practical level, everything you claim to support is undermined by your own self-admitted patriarchical, authoritarian, chauvinistic world. You claim you're pro-choice but what about that time you argued that men deserve a say in abortions? You claim you're pro-gay marriage but you defended a bigot donating money to an anti-gay hate group. You're trying so hard to argue you're not transphobic but there's an entire thread from not even two months ago that puts the lie to that claim. You're a fraud, and what's really sad is you really seem to believe your own bullshit. Christ, you make Cenk Uygur look humble.
Listen, I'll dunk on Vae, Tony, Eva, all these other right-wing sad sacks all day long, but at the end of the day I don't expect much from them. They're just background noise. But you? Your faux-liberal centrism with the thinnest veneer of progressive politics is insidiously convincing despite your sophistry, your intellectual dishonesty, and your sealioning. It's people like you why left-wing movements fail, because guys like you -- and it's almost always guys -- bullshit their way in and then reveal themselves to be the illiberal chuds they are only after they've irrevocably damaged and undermined the movement.
SubJeff on 18/10/2020 at 12:48
Let's see. I wonder how much of this is crossed wires.
Re: men's say on abortion. I think everyone should have a say on abortion - on the rules surrounding abortion. In the UK abortion is legal up to 24 weeks, which is the current milestone for foetal viability. I think it's a very tough topic and that 24 weeks is a reasonable way to go about it. That's my opinion. Is that opinion irrelevant because I'm male? Because this what you are saying if you think men have no say.
This is not the same thing as control of the decision at the time. Any woman should have the sole choice regarding continuing a pregnancy and no one else, man, woman or other, that is not the pregnant person should be able to make that basic decision. Not even the father. There are exceptions to every rule though and in the UK terminations can take place after 24 weeks in special circumstances.
It's plain to me that there is a large difference in men contributing to the discussion on the rules and men having a say over an individual's choice. It may be that there is a radial feminist group that thinks abortion should be legal up to 34 weeks for example, which I would consider barbaric. It may also be the case that the doctors at the cutting edge of neonatology, and therefore determining through their knowledge and skills exactly when viability is, are all men. Should the experts in the field not have a say simply because they are male? To me this is like saying "you're not black, you can't tell if it's racist" which is plainly bs.
I'm pro-gay marriage but I'm also pro-freedom of speech. A man once donating to a group that is anti gay-marriage shouldn't be persecuted forever if he's changed his mind. Mopgoblin has admitted here he used to be a transphobe. Should he be banned?
And FWIW I think your type of leftism - extreme and without nuance or comprehension - is what damages the movement. You're the type of guy to go on a BLM march and protest against people who moved into apartments and "gentrified" an area because they are white, without realising that the type of racial segregation of districts you are proposing is exactly the same thing as the ultra right wing want.
This is a crude joke video about this, but it's got some truth to it:
[video=youtube;Ev373c7wSRg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg[/video]
mopgoblin on 18/10/2020 at 14:15
Quote Posted by june gloom
Listen, I'll dunk on Vae, Tony, Eva, all these other right-wing sad sacks all day long, but at the end of the day I don't expect much from them. They're just background noise. But you? Your faux-liberal centrism with the thinnest veneer of progressive politics is insidiously convincing despite your sophistry, your intellectual dishonesty, and your sealioning. It's people like you why left-wing movements fail, because guys like you -- and it's almost always guys -- bullshit their way in and then reveal themselves to be the illiberal chuds they are only after they've irrevocably damaged and undermined the movement.
All of that, but personally I'd add that for all that I don't agree with, say, Tony's politics, I've never felt like I need a shower after reading his posts. There's a certain, I dunno, sleaze isn't the quite word, but
something uniquely unpalateable about SubJeff's posts or tone that sets off my spidey-senses in a way that most men and even many right-wingers don't.
Quote Posted by SubJeff
Mopgoblin has admitted here he used to be a transphobe. Should he be banned?
Uh, you do realise I'm a woman right? Unless there have been two big awful threads on that particular topic here, I'm pretty sure it was me saying that men shouldn't have a say in abortion policy that resulted in you (and maybe one or two others) having a big sulk about it a few years back. I stand by it, in case you're wondering, and that topic is also a solid example of why I reckon you're a misogynist and/or just fundamentally don't understand women, because you seem to think that we'd wait until super-late to have abortions without a good reason. Seriously, all we're wanting on the abortion thing is for you to trust us to make the right decision on both personal and policy levels. It's our issue, not yours, so unless you're harbouring some backwards-arse belief that women are somehow morally deficient or incapable of reason, it shouldn't be that hard for you to respect that.
Aaaaanyway, as far as transphobia goes, the difference between us is that I made an effort to learn, to stop being a jerk, and to listen to and stand up for trans women, whereas you just deny your bad behaviour because the only part of it you seem to regret is the (honestly pretty remote) prospect of being held accountable. That said, if any trans women here reckon it's not enough then I'd be happy to take a ban, if SubJeff gets the same.
SubJeff on 18/10/2020 at 14:55
Why do you think men should not have a say in abortion policy?
Do you think white people should have a say in anti racism policy?
Are there any other policy areas where the input is restricted in this way? Doesn't this potential prevent expert input? Or relevant counter arguments?
Although I strongly believe in legalisation of abortion, I just find it very short sighted to exclude men from the discussion.
june gloom on 18/10/2020 at 19:37
Quote Posted by SubJeff
Let's see. I wonder how much of this is crossed wires.
Re: men's say on abortion. I think everyone should have a say on abortion - on the rules surrounding abortion. In the UK abortion is legal up to 24 weeks, which is the current milestone for foetal viability. I think it's a very tough topic and that 24 weeks is a reasonable way to go about it. That's my opinion. Is that opinion irrelevant because I'm male? Because this what you are saying if you think men have no say.
This is not the same thing as control of the decision at the time. Any woman should have the sole choice regarding continuing a pregnancy and no one else, man, woman or other, that is not the pregnant person should be able to make that basic decision. Not even the father. There are exceptions to every rule though and in the UK terminations can take place after 24 weeks in special circumstances.
It's plain to me that there is a large difference in men contributing to the discussion on the rules and men having a say over an individual's choice. It may be that there is a radial feminist group that thinks abortion should be legal up to 34 weeks for example, which I would consider barbaric. It may also be the case that the doctors at the cutting edge of neonatology, and therefore determining through their knowledge and skills exactly when viability is, are all men. Should the experts in the field not have a say simply because they are male? To me this is like saying "you're not black, you can't tell if it's racist" which is plainly bs.
I'm pro-gay marriage but I'm also pro-freedom of speech. A man once donating to a group that is anti gay-marriage shouldn't be persecuted forever if he's changed his mind. Mopgoblin has admitted here he used to be a transphobe. Should he be banned?
And FWIW I think your type of leftism - extreme and without nuance or comprehension - is what damages the movement. You're the type of guy to go on a BLM march and protest against people who moved into apartments and "gentrified" an area because they are white, without realising that the type of racial segregation of districts you are proposing is exactly the same thing as the ultra right wing want.
This is a crude joke video about this, but it's got some truth to it:
[video=youtube;Ev373c7wSRg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg[/video]
This is hilariously self-serving. And the cherry on top is linking to a Ryan Long video. Just amazing.
I'll let mopgoblin tackle the abortion stuff if she wants.
Let me just ask you, what's more important to you? Queer people having rights or some shitty cishet guy's right to provide material support to a hate group? Pick one, you chuffing hypocrite.
Quote:
You're the type of guy to go on a BLM march and protest against people who moved into apartments and "gentrified" an area because they are white, without realising that the type of racial segregation of districts you are proposing is exactly the same thing as the ultra right wing want.
This really shows where your loyalties lie. You genuinely don't understand what BLM want, you genuinely don't understand what gentrification is. Nobody is calling for racial segregation you colossal dork. Gentrification is wealthy people, mostly white, moving into a neighborhood, raising property values and pricing out working-class people, many of them people of color, who have lived there for generations. I have friends who have lost apartments because a bunch of bougie bastards moved into the neighborhood and the rent shot up to twice what it was. Why don't you ask a friend of mine what her rent in Oakland was ten years ago and what the same apartment would cost her now? But you put gentrification in scare quotes because you don't think it's real. What a shock. You've always been exactly the kind of bougie bastard who causes this problem.
And once again, I'm not a guy, but go ahead and misgender me some more if it really gets your rocks off.
[ETA] In retrospect I probably shouldn't have bothered, because that's just playing your game and now I've gotten sucked into the SubJeff Vortex. Oh well, YOLO.
Nicker on 18/10/2020 at 20:24
Meanwhile, (
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/14/hunter-bidens-alleged-laptop-an-explainer/) another Trumpian October Surprise fizzles. Hunter Biden's alleged lap top, allegedly loaded with super-secret information about Hunter's alleged criminal activity in Ukraine, and which he allegedly forgot all about after he left it with some random repair shop for so long that the shop owner decided to release the alleged contents of the alleged hard drive to the Washington Post, who then made allegations which Trump & Co. declared were rock solid truths...
Quote:
The New York Post published PDF printouts of several emails allegedly taken from the laptop, but for the “smoking-gun” email, it shows only a photo made the day before the story was posted, according to Thomas Rid, the author of “Active Measures,” a book on disinformation. “There is no header information, no metadata.” The Washington Post has not been able to independently verify or authenticate these emails, as requests to make the laptop hard drive available for inspection have not been granted. The New York Post said it obtained the material from former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, a personal lawyer to President Trump.
There also is no indication that Hunter Biden replied to the email.
Moreover, another alleged email published by the New York Post contradicts the notion that Hunter Biden could influence his father. “What he will do and say is out of our hands,” Hunter Biden wrote in an email that the New York Post said was sent April 13, 2014.
Surprise!!!
Kolya on 18/10/2020 at 20:57
Quote Posted by SubJeff
And FWIW I think your type of leftism - extreme and without nuance or comprehension - is what damages the movement.
This. The whole discussion is to prove that SubJeff is not left wing (enough) and exclude him. It's a perfect example of how the left generally loses against the right through infighting. On the right hawks will not pick out hawks' eyes. But apparently you have to fight anyone who claims to be in the same boat with you, if your political authority rests on the exclusivity of your victim group.
june gloom on 18/10/2020 at 22:05
That's hilarious from someone who left a Discord server because a trans person told you to stop using slurs.
