Briareos H on 31/7/2020 at 05:29
Quote Posted by Nicker
It will be the most FRAUDULENT ELECTION EVERFor once he's transparent about his commitments.
SubJeff on 31/7/2020 at 08:56
15. The ability to unashamedly publish lists that you just made up.
I hate these virtue signaling pieces of bs. Half the things on there can exist in perfectly normal democratic lefty utopias, with hella quinoa and avocado toast but still having law and order and markets that work.
demagogue on 31/7/2020 at 11:23
This isn't a time for semantics in any event. Trump has unambiguously crossed multiple red lines of liberal democracy. It's not even worth the effort of categorizing or debating just which exact flavor of fascist or sociopath he is. It's one or another of them, and it's essential that he's out of the picture for the US to begin the long road to reestablishing the most basic liberal democratic norms like rule of law, impartiality and non-discrimination, not making national policy that is openly corrupt and self-serving... the things I used to lecture to my Myanmar law students, who were learning these concepts for the first time just because they're coming out of a military government, and they recognized the challenges they have before them and were hell bent on seeing those norms through. Americans have no such excuse.
Gryzemuis on 31/7/2020 at 11:56
Quote Posted by demagogue
It's not even worth the effort of categorizing or debating just which exact flavor of fascist or sociopath he is.
I think it is. If you just say "Trump bad", then all his supporters (and maybe more) are not gonna listen to you. One thing Trump (and the Republicans, even the ones earlier) do, is say: "look at those folks. they are bad. therefor they are the enemy". They don't want their voters to listen to anything the Democrats say. They don't want their voters to trust any Democrat. They want to cultivate constant conflict. Just like "the commies are coming" or "the terrorist are coming". I was always wondering who would be next. It turns out it is: "watch out, the democrats are coming".
If you want to fight the Republicans, you can not do the same thing. You need to stay correct and focused. Have a true discussion. Point out the details. Or else you're gonna be just like them.
Quote:
and it's essential that he's out of the picture for the US to begin the long road to reestablishing the most basic liberal democratic norms
Sorry. But Trump is not the problem. Trump is just a symptom. He's the result of 40 years of Republican strategy and politics. Starting with Reagan. It maybe started even before. If you think the Republican "way of politics" is gonna stop when Trump is gone, you're mistaken. After Trump someone else will stand up and continue. And if I had to guess, the next "Trump-like" Republican candidate will be even worse than Trump. If you want to bring back democracy to the US, you need to get rid of the Republican party. Or replace it.
As written here before, lots of stuff needs to be changed, if the US wants to become a real democracy. Two major things: 1) only count nation-wide votes (the popular vote, it is called, I believe). 2) Get rid of the 2-party system. Act as if the GOP and DemP are multinational companies without real competition. Split them up. You need at least 10 decently-sized political parties. So the voter has a real choice.
I agree with SubJeff. When I saw that list, I thought: "half of those were true before Trump appeared".
Gryzemuis on 31/7/2020 at 12:22
(
https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html)
> Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
This has always been the case. Example. In no country in Europe we play the national anthem before any major or minor event. I still look in bewilderment every time that happens. It's weird. Also no country in Europe thinks they are "the bestest country in the world".
> Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Not sure any laws regarding Human Rights have changed under Trump. I think it's the same. If you look at "the workfloor", that's always been messy. Like many other countries in the world.
> Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
Always been the case. Remember McCarthy. "The commies are coming". Then "the terrorist are coming". Nowadays it's "the immigrants are coming". Or the Democrats. I agree this point was important in Nazi-Germany. But it's happening in many (if not all) other places as well.
> Supremacy of the Military
Since WWII, the US is the biggest military spender, has the largest army, and started the most wars. The only thing you can say about Trump here is: at least he didn't start another war.
> Rampant Sexism
Nothing to do with fascism. Before WWII, women were not considered full citizens. That is still slowly improving today. Nothing to do with fascism. Nothing to do with Trump. I don't feel the US has taken a step back under Trump.
> Controlled Mass Media
Open for lots of discussion.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership)
Concentration of media ownership has been going on for a long time. It's weird to me that Republicans consider mainstream media "leftish". All those mainstream media companies are 100% capitalistic companies. Who have always propagated capitalistic viewpoints. They are capitalistic, conservative, right-wing. Maybe just not right enough for the Republicans.
What Trump does that is fascist, is call the press "lugenpresse".
That is taken straight out of the cookbook of fascism.
> Obsession with National Security
Always been the case.
> Religion and Government are Intertwined
Not more than before. In fact, it is obvious that Trump is not religious himself. He just plays a little theatre. Which many others do as well.
Also, I'm not sure religion was import in Nazi-Germany.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany)
It seems the views of the top Nazis was not coherent.
> Corporate Power is Protected
Always been the case. Especially in the US.
> Labor Power is Suppressed
It's not supressed, I think. It's more that corporate America has convinced it workers that unions are bad. I don't know how they did it. It's like gun-ownership. I think it's crazy (and so do most people outside the US). But somehow, most US citizens think it's good to have guns everywhere.
> Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
True. Certainly regarding Trump. However, I don't think Trump was the first. Disdain has been shown by the Republicans for a long time.
> Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Not sure this is a fascist thing.
> Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Not a fascist thing, imho. Happens everywhere. But indeed, Trump is a mobster, so it's not surprise that his government is full of cronyism and corruption. Has it spread out over the rest of the US ? I don't think it's worse than before.
> Fraudulent Elections
Not happened yet. I agree that the Republicans do everything to make the elections favor their odds. Voter suppression. Gerrymandering. Etc. But that is not because of Trump. That started a long time ago.
I agree that Trump has taken a few things out of the "Fascism for Dummies" book.
But not everything.
I think most things in the US that you now see as fascism have always been there. You might have not realized how close the US is to a fascist state, in some respects.
demagogue on 31/7/2020 at 12:35
@Gryzemuis, it you want specific responses to those points....
(1) I read and write detailed legal analyses for my day job, the kind where half of every page is footnotes. People that want to know exactly the brand of fascist / populist / mercantilist / frontal lobe profile / sociopathy, etc., Trump is or displays have mountains and mountains and mountains of writing that go it meticulous detail over every possibly imaginable angle. So it's not even a question if it's good to get it out there. It's already out there and always has been. It's already there and they don't read it. How many times do you say the same thing over & over & over? That's the part that's not worth the effort. It's all already out there. At best it's worth throwing a "Here, let me google that for you" at them, knowing they probably aren't going to follow up on it. That said, if people ask me a direct question, I give them as direct an answer as I can within my knowledge. So I myself take that kind of effort at least.
(2) Of course Trump isn't the root problem. That's why I called it the long road. But that doesn't negate the fact that he's a fundamental obstacle that's still necessary to get out of the picture to starting on that road.
Gryzemuis on 31/7/2020 at 13:31
No, I don't need specific responses. I suspect we will agree on most points anyway.
All I wanted to say is: "Trump is a fascist" or "Orange-man bad" is just too broad of an statement to convince his supporters. I can understand why people are sick of keeping repeating the same things over and over again.
I don't agree on your point 2). Trump will be gone. Probably by next year. What Americans need to think about is what to do to fix the fundamental problem (rigid semi-democracy in the US). And that's not an easy problem to solve. Wasting cycles on thinking about Trump is now a waste of energy.
Nicker on 31/7/2020 at 18:49
If you are fatigued thinking about Trump, I fully understand. Me too. But if people pretend he is some sort of benign virus that will magically vanish in the hot weather, they will be forced to think about him a lot more and for a lot longer.
You can argue that any administration / nation indulges in some items, to some degree at some time. Trump hits everyone of them as hard as he can, all the time. Excusing that by saying,
well it's like that all over is bullshit because the reason it is happening more intensely all over is because of the tacit permission Trump has given the fascists (the good people on both sides) to act without shame or consequence. I used the F word because it is completely appropriate. When armed White Supremacists can occupy a state legislature, demanding the removal of an elected official (at the end of a fucking rope, preferably) and there are no consequences, Trump has endorsed them and their methods. How is that status quo?
Quote:
Remember McCarthy. "The commies are coming".
And do you remember what happened when that scapegoating was indulged? When McCarthy waved a blank sheet of paper and people shit themselves? The damage to the USA and many innocent people was enormous and enduring. You can't write that of as some sort of political background noise. Not then and not now.
Trump doesn't need to be the novel source of the items on the list, he just needs to amplify and exploit them in service of his goal of tyranny.
Yes, orange man IS bad. Very bad. That's a fact and rewording it to sound like it was spoken by a toddler is just cheap semantics. Since when did stating the obvious become "virtue signalling"? If you want to talk about reducing complex issues to simplistic labeling, there's a prime example right there. You don't want to identify a bad person doing bad things in case you are labeled a virtue signaling SJW.
Trump IS a fascist. Just because he hasn't managed to completely fulfill all of his kingly fantasies, in this term, doesn't mean he will stop trying. If not for a few obstacles he doesn't even understand (like the Constitution) Trump would be ruling by decree exclusively. He has tried already and every attempt has ended in disaster. He has nothing to lose. Hung for a sheep as for a lamb. He will burn the world to save his vile skin.
Trump is a danger to the world. If that is an overstatement, please correct me. I would be delighted to be relieved of the weight of its implications.
heywood on 31/7/2020 at 20:19
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
I think it is. If you just say "Trump bad", then all his supporters (and maybe more) are not gonna listen to you. One thing Trump (and the Republicans, even the ones earlier) do, is say: "look at those folks. they are bad. therefor they are the enemy". They don't want their voters to listen to anything the Democrats say. They don't want their voters to trust any Democrat. They want to cultivate constant conflict. Just like "the commies are coming" or "the terrorist are coming". I was always wondering who would be next. It turns out it is: "watch out, the democrats are coming".
If you want to fight the Republicans, you can not do the same thing. You need to stay correct and focused. Have a true discussion. Point out the details. Or else you're gonna be just like them.
A year ago I would have agreed. But now that's I've seen how the base of the Republican party responded to impeachment and COVID-19, I'm convinced there's 35-40% of the population who are too far gone to be reachable for at least the next few election cycles. It doesn't matter how mature, well reasoned, and compelling your argument is. No matter what you say, once they figure out that you're not on their side, all they hear is "orange man bad". They're past the point of listening to expertise, science, history, or logic. And past the point of wanting to have discussions and debates about what's best for the country, which are necessary in a functioning democracy. They have shown they don't really care about democratic principles or ethics and the only use they have for public institutions is to further their interests. They have their own media, their own experts, and live in their own information space which is nearly impossible to penetrate.
This election is not going to be decided by who has the best ideas and direction for the country or who can win debates. The polls don't matter. It's down to who can get voters to actually turn out in the middle of a pandemic, and that's where Republicans have an advantage.
Nicker on 31/7/2020 at 20:47
Sadly I think it is also down to whether the GOP can suppress enough votes to question the results.
