Renzatic on 13/2/2020 at 20:45
Quote Posted by jkcerda
they DID pass their agenda, sold the American public to the HC industry.
Pyrian's right. Rather than blame Republicans for opposing something, you'd rather blame the Democrats for failing to circumvent them.
That's nice, now let's see Trump honor it, and if he doesn't, then let's see the Senate hold him responsible.
jkcerda on 13/2/2020 at 21:08
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Pyrian's right. Rather than blame Republicans for opposing something, you'd rather blame the Democrats for failing to circumvent them.
That's nice, now let's see Trump honor it, and if he doesn't, then let's see the Senate hold him responsible.
sorry, WHEN have republicans been for socialized HC?..... demotards could have passed single payer had they WANTED to do so .
heywood on 13/2/2020 at 21:21
When you control all branches of government, you can't blame the other party for your own incompetence in whipping your members.
Obama ran on a public option. So did the party as a whole, it was part of the 2008 platform. Obviously, Republicans were going to oppose it, so they needed to control Congress and the White House to get it done. They appealed to the voters and got exactly what they wanted, not just the White House and majorities in both houses of Congress, but a fillibuster-proof majority in the Senate. That's a rare occurrence and you can't expect to get better. The Republicans were literally powerless to stop anything as long as the Democratic Party stuck together.
When you get that kind of electoral victory, you have to take advantage of it. The party failed because they put one of their most conservative members in charge of the Senate Finance Committee, who had already been bought and paid for by the health care industry, and then left the task of negotiating the ACA to his committee. They could have put it in someone else's hands. The White House could have been driving the negotiations, not standing aside. They could have gotten it out of committee and let the filibuster happen if it was going to happen. Filibusters do break. Obama could have been using his bully pulpit. They could have organized some kind of grass roots campaign to pressure their holdouts. There's lots of could haves. But instead, they decided to back off and just take a small bite of the apple, hoping or maybe assuming they would have an opportunity to come back for more. And then the Tea Party happened and their window of opportunity closed.
Like I said before, you can't look to the moderates for solutions to the really big problems. If the country is more or less on track, you put a moderate behind the wheel because they will stay in their lane and steer a steady course. But if you've gone off road and are headed toward a cliff, you need someone who's not afraid to yank the wheel to the left or the right.
Renzatic on 13/2/2020 at 21:36
Quote Posted by jkcerda
sorry, WHEN have republicans been for socialized HC?..... demotards could have passed single payer had they WANTED to do so .
They could've passed single payer, but the Republicans would have gone out of their way to cripple it the moment they regained power in congress. That's exactly what they've done with the ACA, choosing to neglect it at best, and sabotage it at worst just so they can talk about how stupid the demotards and their stupid little socialist bills are. The only reason we have even a bare skeleton of it in place is because McCain broke the party line when the vote to get rid of it came before the Senate. Now they're back to ignoring and sabotaging it again.
They'd do exactly the same thing to a universal healthcare setup, which they're even more firmly against.
The only way we'll have any chance of fixing our healtcare issues is if both parties are onboard for the solution, hence why the Democrats allowed so much of the ACA to be compromised before the vote. It didn't do anyone any good, because now we're left with a halfassed solution that doesn't address the core issues, and the Republicans still voted against it, just so they could play politics with the outcome. Hell, the Republicans shut down the entire government in an attempt to fully defund it. Remember that?
It's worked wonders for them, cuz hey, they got the House and Senate soon after, and here you are blaming the Democrats for the Republicans poisoning the well. If they went ahead and rushed it through the Senate when they had the chance, then you'd still be here, accusing them of bludgeoning the Republicans with their then majority, instead of trying to discuss things out. The only real difference would be that we'd have a hobbled universal healthcare system, instead of a hobbled ACA.
heywood on 13/2/2020 at 22:22
Don't think that Republicans will suddenly see the light and get on board, even if you're just talking about a public option and not single payer.
It has become glaringly obvious to me anyway, that there never will be a grand solution to health care that both parties will agree to. Same with immigration. If you want to solve these problems, you have to win big and be bold enough to act when the voters give you the opportunity.
They shouldn't worry about their work being undone when there's a power shift. Major legislation tends to have staying power. Despite making ACA repeal a campaign promise, electing Trump, and winning House & Senate majorities, the Republicans still couldn't manage to repeal or gut it.
jkcerda on 14/2/2020 at 00:39
Quote Posted by Renzatic
They could've passed single payer, but the Republicans would have gone out of their way to cripple it the moment they regained power in congress. That's exactly what they've done with the ACA, choosing to neglect it at best, and sabotage it at worst just so they can talk about how stupid the demotards and their stupid little socialist bills are. The only reason we have even a bare skeleton of it in place is because McCain broke the party line when the vote to get rid of it came before the Senate. Now they're back to ignoring and sabotaging it again.
They'd do exactly the same thing to a universal healthcare setup, which they're even more firmly against.
The only way we'll have any chance of fixing our healtcare issues is if both parties are onboard for the solution, hence why the Democrats allowed so much of the ACA to be compromised before the vote. It didn't do anyone any good, because now we're left with a halfassed solution that doesn't address the core issues, and the Republicans still voted against it, just so they could play politics with the outcome. Hell, the Republicans shut down the entire government in an attempt to fully defund it. Remember that?
It's worked wonders for them, cuz hey, they got the House and Senate soon after, and here you are blaming the Democrats for the Republicans poisoning the well. If they went ahead and rushed it through the Senate when they had the chance, then you'd still be here, accusing them of bludgeoning the Republicans with their then majority, instead of trying to discuss things out. The only real difference would be that we'd have a hobbled universal healthcare system, instead of a hobbled ACA.
THANKS for admitting DEMOCRATS did NOT want single payer.
Renzatic on 14/2/2020 at 01:14
Where the fuck did I say that?
Starker on 14/2/2020 at 02:02
Quote Posted by heywood
When you control all branches of government, you can't blame the other party for your own incompetence in whipping your members.
Except Lieberman was an independent and not a member of the party at the time.
Quote Posted by jkcerda
see the quote inside post #12876 at the top, no where was single payer mentioned, that is all you. hell Heywood also talks about single payer.
I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to Heywood directly above me, who explicitly talked about the public option.
Quote Posted by heywood
Second, I don't think we've reached the point where even a majority of Democrats want a single-payer system. It wasn't even on the table when Obama came into office. What was on the table, but got traded away, was a
public option. Don't blame the Republicans for that, they were in the minority in both chambers. Blame Max Baucus and other Democrats in Congress who sold out to the industry. And blame Obama for letting the Senate come up with the solution. He was too hands-off and wouldn't take on Max.
jkcerda on 14/2/2020 at 06:07
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Where the fuck did I say that?
2+2.
Starker. My apologies I ASSUMED since no one quotes here
Renzatic on 14/2/2020 at 07:42
You know what happens when you assume, right? Yup. You assert a self-conceived notion as granted without prior proof.
Don't do that. It's evil. :mad:
Also, we don't quote text blocks directly above a reply for the same reason everything's a megathread here: cuz.
