Renzatic on 21/11/2019 at 18:42
And the most damnable thing about it is that it's working. Support for impeachment is dropping.
jkcerda on 21/11/2019 at 18:58
BOTH appear correct, see video linked, that said the call was because Sonland felt he could NOT get the funds w/o the QPQ. QPQ demanded by others EXCEPT trump, unless Rudy rolls on trump I don't see the senate going along with the impeachment of the house.
Renzatic on 21/11/2019 at 19:24
Given that Trump is the only person in play who has the power to place a hold on congressionally approved funds, it's pretty safe to say he's involved, even without direct evidence.
Though the Senate can still play the "well, it's not good, but it's not BAD bad" card they've been playing.
heywood on 21/11/2019 at 21:31
Quote Posted by Renzatic
And the most damnable thing about it is that it's working. Support for impeachment is dropping.
Things seemed pretty black and white when the story broke. The Trump administration was extorting the gov't of Ukraine for a Domestic political favor. The transcript was the smoking gun (clear evidence of a quid pro quo) that Mueller was never able to find in his Russia investigation.
But it seems like the hearings are giving the Republicans their chance to muddy it all up for the public. They divert, they obfuscate, they treat basic facts as partisan interpretations. Only political junkies can follow the constant stream of minutia coming out of the hearings. For the rest of the population, it's too much information. If people can't follow it, they just turn to their favorite (highly partisan) sources of political analysis to interpret it for them.
Once the primaries start, most people's attention will shift to the horse race and the public appetite for an impeachment trial will decline further. So if the House leaders intend to impeach, they had better get on with it.
If the House does impeach him, the Republicans will control the trial and use the coverage to tar & feather the Bidens, further muddy up the facts, posit conspiracies, and find a fall guy (probably Giuliani) to take the blame for Trump. It will turn into a straight-up partisan fight and Trump will be spared. I still want the Dems to go through with it, out of principle. But I don't think it's going to do much for them politically. By the time we reach the election next November, Ukraine will off our radar again.
Renzatic on 21/11/2019 at 23:25
If they really want to nail a home run on this, all they need to do is get Trump deposed on live TV, like they did Clinton back in the day. There's no way he'd be able to control himself for 3-4 hours, and he'll end stumbling over himself, and likely committing a few acts of perjury along the way.
...which is why the Republicans will fight tooth and nail to keep it from happening.
Tocky on 22/11/2019 at 15:45
Can anyone tell me how Trump can proclaim he wants nothing from Ukraine AFTER the whistle blower has come forward and any sane person can say that exonerates him? It's like snatching the note to the teller back and saying you were kidding AFTER the cops show up to arrest you for bank robbery. Isn't that a new level of stupid for Trump supporters to believe that? Or should we just assume no intelligence whatsoever from them? It seems to be what Republicans assume in attempting it and Fox in supporting it.
Pyrian on 22/11/2019 at 16:29
Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. And context is the easiest fact to remove.
heywood on 22/11/2019 at 16:55
As long as they still prefer Trump in office over a Democrat, all of his misdeeds will be excused. It's really that simple.
Ethics is for chumps. In politics, we only care about ethics when it can be weaponozed against the other aide. Otherwise, why fight with a hand tied behind your back?
It's a sad state of politics, but true I think.
Pyrian on 22/11/2019 at 17:28
You say "state of politics" but it looks to me like "state of the Republican party". You say "sad" but I say "dire". The reality is that there's only so long Democracy can survive the pursuit of power trampling the rule of law, before it's no longer Democracy at all. We're not there yet, but it's pretty easy to see it from here.
jkcerda on 22/11/2019 at 19:01
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. And context is the easiest fact to remove.
well that was quick.
Quote Posted by Pyrian
You say "state of politics" but it looks to me like "state of the Republican party". You say "sad" but I say "dire". The reality is that there's only so long Democracy can survive the pursuit of power trampling the rule of law, before it's no longer Democracy at all. We're not there yet, but it's pretty easy to see it from here.
