Rogue Keeper on 29/5/2007 at 09:02
It seems that some people around are putting their own assumptions in my mouth, so it's time to clear out some issues.
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
There is no causative link, there never has been and there never will be. What there is is a tremendous corollation between sex offenders and extreme / illegal pornography. But that's like using the fact that some criminals use guns as a justification for outlawing private possession of firearms. Which I suppose is another kettle of tard I've just set on the boil, but hey.
Causative link of what, specifically?
Excuse me, but I didn‘t say „Looking at pornography [in all cases and without doubt!] leads to fucking ten year-old Thai boys in the bum". Such simplifying hyperboles are below my level. You don't have to explain to me that the causative relationship between pornography, individual sex drive, mental state and incidents of rape is far more complex that any person remotely educated in the field of forensic psychiatry can understand. I have already said they argue about the topic between themselves and they probably will for certain time. Let's see what real professionals think about the issue :
Example No. 1 : „PORNOGRAPHY, SEX CRIME, AND PUBLIC POLICY“
Berl Kutchinsky, Professor of Criminology, Institute of Criminology and Criminal Science
University of Copenhagen, Denmark
(
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf)
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Most other research data we have about pornography and rape suggest that the link between them is more than weak. Our knowledge about the contents, the uses and the users of pornography suggests that pornography does not represent a blueprint for rape, but is essentially an aphrodisiac, that is, food for the sexual fantasy of personsmostly maleswho like to masturbate.
The policy implications of this conclusion are, of course open to debate. But as mentioned earlier, the mainstream attitude would seem to be a combination of two movements:
= to reduce the area of total prohibition and censorship to a minimum; and
= to implement a variety of restrictions, suitable to each form of pornography, in
order to obtain maximum protection of children, and of adults who want no confrontation with
the material.
Example No. 2: „Pornography and Sexual Violence“
R. Jensen, Ph.D., University of Texas at Austin / D. Okrina, Clinical Supervisor
Houston Area Women's Center, (
http://www.vawnet.org/SexualViolence/Research/VAWnetDocuments/AR_PornAndSV.pdf)
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Consumption and Effects
Virtually all reviews of the research on the potential connections between pornography and sexual violence suggest there is evidence for some limited effects on male consumers but no way to reach definitive conclusions. If one is looking for direct causal links in a traditional science model, this is likely to be a permanent assessment; it is difficult to imagine research methods that could provide more compelling data and conclusions. However, if we expand the scope of the inquiry, other insights are possible (Boyle, 2000). Three basic types of studies have emerged in the search for an answer to the question about the relationship between pornography and violence, two of which are within the traditional science model and of limited value. First, a few large-scale studies have investigated the correlation of the availability of pornography to rates of violence, with mixed results (Kutchinsky, 1991; Jaffee & Strauss, 1987). The complexity of confounding variables and the imprecision of measures make these studies of extremely
limited value. Second, experimental studies in the laboratory have been constructed to investigate directly the question of causal links. A typical study might expose groups of subjects to different types or levels of sexually explicit material for comparison to a control group that views non-sexual material. Researchers look for significant differences between attitudes toward rape. From such controlled testing — measuring the effect of an experimental stimulus (exposure to pornography) on a dependent variable (attitudes toward women or sex) in randomly
selected groups —researchers make claims, usually tentative, about causal relationships.
One of the most thorough reviews of the experimental literature by leading researchers in the field concluded, “if a person has relatively aggressive sexual inclinations resulting from various personal and/or cultural factors, some pornography exposure may activate and reinforce associated coercive tendencies and behaviors” (Malamuth, Addison, & Koss, 2000, p. 81). The authors also pointed out that “high pornography use is not necessarily indicative of high risk for sexual aggression” (p. 79). Another large-scale literature review also concluded that men predisposed toward violence are most likely to show effects from viewing pornography and
that men not predisposed are unlikely to show effects (Seto, Maric, & Barbarre, 2001, p. 46).
While this experimental work sometimes offers interesting hints at how pornography works in regard to men's sexual behavior, it suffers from several serious problems that limit its value. First, the measures of men's attitudes toward women, such as answers to questions about the appropriate punishment for rapists, do not necessarily tell us anything about men's willingness to rape. Men often view their sexually aggressive or violent behavior not as aggression or violence but as “just sex.” In other words, men who rape often condemn rape, which they see as something other men do (Koss, 1988). Also, sexual behavior is a complicated mix of cognitive, emotional, and physical responses, and the answers one gives to a survey may or may not accurately reflect that mix.[.....]
Based both on the lab research and such interviews, Diana Russell has argued that pornography is a causal factor in the way that it can: (1) predispose some males to desire rape or intensify this desire; (2) undermine some males' internal inhibitions against acting out rape desires; (3) undermine some males' social inhibitions against acting out rape desires; and (4) undermine some potential victims' abilities to avoid or resist rape (Russell, 1998, p. 121).
Even without making claims that strong, the public testimony of women (MacKinnon &
Dworkin, 1997), my interviews with pornography users and sex offenders, and various other researchers' work, have led me to conclude that pornography can: (1) be an important factor in shaping a male-dominant view of sexuality; (2) be used to initiate victims and break down their resistance to unwanted sexual activity; (3) contribute to a user's difficulty in separating sexual fantasy and reality; and (4) provide a training manual for abusers (Dines & Jensen, 2004). Consider the following reports and what they tell us about the relationship between pornography and behavior:
- From a woman involved in street prostitution, who reported that when one john exploded at
her he said: “I know all about you bitches, you're no different; you're like all of them. I seen it in all the movies. You love being beaten. [He then began punching the victim violently.] I just seen it again in that flick. He beat the shit out of her while he raped her and she told him she loved it; you know you love it; tell me you love it” (Silbert & Pines, 1984, p. 864).
- From a woman, interviewed in a study of sexual assault: “My husband enjoys pornographic movies. He tries to get me to do things he finds exciting in movies. They include twosomes and threesomes. I always refuse. Also, I was always upset with his ideas about putting objects in my vagina, until I learned this is not as deviant as I used to think. He used to force me or put whatever he enjoyed into me” (Russell, 1980, p. 226).
And from three different men in my study who had been convicted of sex offenses (Dines, Jensen, & Russo, 1998):
- From a 34-year-old man who had raped women and sexually abused girls: “There was a lot of oral sex that I wanted her to perform on me. There were, like, ways that would entice it in the movies, and I tried to use that on her, and it wouldn't work. Sometimes I'd get frustrated, and that's when I started hitting her. ... I used a lot of force, a lot of direct demands, that in the
movies women would just cooperate. And I would demand stuff from her. And if she didn't, I'd start slapping her around” (p. 124).
- From a 41-year-old man who had sexually abused his stepdaughter: “In fact, when I'd be abusing my daughter, I'd be thinking about some women I saw in a video. Because if I was to open my eyes and see my stepdaughter laying there while I was abusing her, you know, that
wouldn't have been very exciting for me. You know, that would bring me back to the painful
reality that I'm a child molester, where I'm in this reality of I'm making love or having intercourse with this beautiful woman from the video. The video didn't even come into my mind. It was just this beautiful person who had a beautiful body, and she was willing to do anything I asked” (p. 126).
- From a 24-year-old man who had sexually abused young girls while working as a school bus driver: “When I was masturbating to these pornography things, I would think about certain girls I had seen on the bus or ones I had sold drugs to, and I would think as I was looking at these pictures in these books, what would it be like to have this girl or whoever doing this, what
I'm thinking about. ... Just masturbating to the thought wasn't getting it for me anymore. I actually had to be a part of it, or actually had to do something about it. ... Like sometimes after I'd see like a certain load of kids would get off the bus, I'd pick out a couple and I'd watch them or stop and look at the mirror and stare at them and stuff like that. I would think, later on in
the day, I'd masturbate to some pornography, I'd just use that picture kind of as a mental, it's kind of a scenery or whatever, and I'd put in my mind I'd put myself and whoever at the time I was thinking about, in that picture” (p. 128-129).
(DR. DIANA E. H. RUSSELL is one of the foremost experts on sexual violence against women and girls in the world. For the past 25 years she has been deeply engaged in research on this topic and has produced numerous books and articles that have become authoritative sources on rape (including wife rape), incest, the misogynist murder of women, and pornography.)
Assuming that pornography or any other images you perceive from mass media don't have ANY influence on our opinions and behavior is like saying that everything else you read, hear, see, smell, taste during your life has absolutely no effect on development of our opinions and expectations. We are collecting stimulations from everything we experience. It's just a mater of individual mentality WHAT influence these experiences will have on us. A cathegorical refusal of influence of pornography on people would be just as dangerous as saying that pornography will eventually turn everyone into sexual deviant or rapist, unfortunately whether somebody likes it or not - *many* of such cases are clinically well documented.
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When there are people who get sexually excited by the bra and panty section of the Sears catalogue, I think it's probably too difficult to define "pornography" by its effects on people. "Sexually explicit material" as a definer is sketchy as well -- I don't recall anyone reading Burroughs or Anais Nin and then going out for a rape.
Sears catalogue would be aesthetic erotica. Burroughs is supposed to be art - not that he was mentally okay, either.
Last, but not least, a quote from Robert Jensen :
„ People who raise critical questions about pornography and the sex industry often are accused
of being prudish, anti-sex, or repressive, but just the opposite is true. Such questions are crucial not only to the struggle to end sexual and domestic violence, but also to the task of building a healthy sexual culture. Activists in the anti-violence and antipornography movements have been at the forefront of that task.“Quote Posted by Kolya
Incidentally I study media sciences and I can tell you that for every study that finds a connection between media influence and and the behavior of consumers there are three that don't find this connection.
All in all it's far from conclusive, almost all of the studies are biased in one way or another. And even if some are not, people who have an agenda will pick the ones that fit their cause from this rubble.
Of course! That's what studies and debates are for. There are studies doubting corelation between industrial exhalates and global warming, too, and both sides accuse each other from having an agenda.
I hoped you would present some studies that would support your POW - I'm fully open for discussion. But don't you have agenda in any possible issue? Are you absolutely sure? I can doubt it.
The problem is that in difficult social issues most people don't know whom to trust and I don't blame them. It's difficult to find orientation in our pursuit of truth. At certain point, there comes an overload with antagonist findings and it peaks to the point when an individual is no longer able to take more of it. And what is the natural defense against information overload? Ignorance. People solve it in such way that they just resign on making a clear opinion on an issue. They just throw a tantrum, stop caring - and their comprehension of a problem begins and ends with making simplifying hyperboles according to their private, limited causative logic.
CyberFish : That's okay, you are just not paying attention. But I better don't want to experience your causative logic though. Oh teh horror!
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
blerp...blerp....blerp... wank...wank...wank...
Say again?