icemann on 18/5/2017 at 04:52
I actually think the theme change is quite similar with both Alien and Terminator.
Alien - Horror
Aliens - Action
Terminator - Horror
Terminator 2 - Action
That said, Terminator 1 is kind of a slasher horror (just with guns rather than a big machete), where as with Alien its something else. Suspense horror? I dunno.
Predator in comparison stuck to what it was with all of it's main entries + Requiem.
SubJeff on 18/5/2017 at 19:17
Quote Posted by Sulphur
If that didn't appeal to you because you wanted it to go completely off-piste, that's fair, but the situation isn't a cut-and-dried rehash.
No, I really liked it. But in retrospect it really is a remake. I appreciate the tone changes and it is much fresher than a pure rehash because of the things you mention.
And yes - both Alien and Terminator go from lean horror to action movie in the sequels.
I don't know what the hell Alien Covenant was supposed to be!
Renault on 18/5/2017 at 19:58
I've seen articles claiming Terminator is a horror movie, but I'm not buying it. I think it's a huge reach. So we're equating Arnold to Jason or Freddy now? I don't think so. We have shotguns and pipe bombs and large explosions. We have time travel. We have car chases. Sure, there's a large body count (police station), but so does any early Schwarzenegger film. This is Action and Sci Fi by almost any definition.
Did you ever feel scared watching Terminator? No, me either. Also, if you're going to argue T1 is a horror movie, by that same logic you have to say T2 is one also.
I think people want to classify it that way so it matches up nicely with the typical Terminator/Aliens comparisons. I'm not saying it isn't influenced or inspired by horror/slasher flicks to some degree, but in the end, it's action/sf.
heywood on 18/5/2017 at 21:24
Quote Posted by SubJeff
I didn't like Event Horizon at the time because the reveal and the end were naff. But in retrospect it's one of the best "crew going on a mission to..." films we've had.
I saw that one again recently. It wasted a potentially interesting setting and a decent cast and visuals. The first half seemed promising, like it was going in a sci-fi horror direction, but then it went all haunted house. It needed a better premise than ship visits hell, comes back haunted and makes everyone go crazy. From what I read, Paul Anderson's first cut was full of gore and the studio had him shorten it and pull out the harder gore, so I don't think it was ever planned to be more than a slasher flick in space.
SubJeff on 18/5/2017 at 21:28
Quote Posted by Brethren
I've seen articles claiming Terminator is a horror movie, but I'm not buying it. I think it's a huge reach.
I see where you're coming from but what makes it a horror is the lean nature of it. Sure it's got some action scenes but really it's about a lone relentless killer and in that respect it's very similar to a slasher flick. The sf-ness of it is irrelevant. In contrast T2 has much more action, is almost a buddy movie and has a lot more talking about Stuff.
icemann on 19/5/2017 at 07:27
Quote Posted by Brethren
Did you ever feel scared watching Terminator?
Rewatch the bits where Arnie breaks into Sarah's place and the bar scene. Also when the 1st Sarah get's picked off.
Just because it doesn't make you quake in terror, no less makes it horror. It's slasher flick horror, in the same realm as Freddy and Jason. Sure no heads get chopped off and no grisly deaths, but it's still one. If you look at all the movies that were coming out around that time frame, you can see the influences.
The Friday the 13th films for example aren't really that scary. Makes em no less horror. Same goes for Nightmare on Elm street (except for movies 1-3 which do have some scary bits).
Just because he (Arnie) uses guns and not machetes make him no less that kinda movie bad guy.
icemann on 20/5/2017 at 19:46
Two things to mention:
Angry Joe did a (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAQGAOPu1k0&t=0s) review of the movie. By the sound of it, the promo stuff released prior was better than the movie itself. Hmm.
And second, James Rolfe (aka The Angry Videogame Nerd) did a (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8m6Jg9Y7X0) series review of the Alien series as a whole (which also covers the videogame side of things + the Predator films). He covers Prometheus as part of it. I watched the video just a few minutes ago and have to say that it's quite good. He asks many of the questions that I had watching the films.
For example, if the ship that crashed on LV426 was transporting eggs to use as bio weapons against some other foe, thousands of years earlier (which clashes with the plot of Prometheus + Covenant), then what was this other alien race? He also points out, that in Prometheus there is art on a wall in the crashed ship which shows proper proper xenomorphs. Now seeing as that ship crashed hundreds or thousands of years earlier, that would negate what I've been hearing about Covenant. I've not seen Covenant yet mind you, but I can connect the dots enough from what I've read and heard, to get the impression that it's
David who "creates" the version of the Xenos that we know. I really hope I'm wrong on that, as that would fuck with nearly every videogame, book and comic that's been done in the Alien universe. Would also make sense as to why everyone's been raging so much.
Has Scott gone and done a George Lucas with his prequels?
Also for Alien 3, how in the hell was there
2 eggs on the Sulaco? You would think they'd have spotted them, considering where they were at the start of Alien 3.
SubJeff on 20/5/2017 at 20:17
Watch and then come back.
icemann on 21/5/2017 at 04:37
Will have to.
icemann on 21/5/2017 at 15:02
Ok just back from the movies after watching the movie. I'm in 2 minds on this movie. I think if I'd not read posts and connected the dots to work out the biggest plot point then I would be REALLY angry at the plot, but then I had and so I'm not as it just confirmed it. Was prepared unlike others who were not beforehand.
Due to this I actually liked the movie *avoids rotten tomatoes*. And I liked it much more than Prometheus. I'm in the minority sure, but that's just me. Now as to being in 2 minds it's because there is stuff that I quite liked and then things I disliked.
The biggest gripe I had with Prometheus was that all it's human cast (besides the main character) were just plain stupid. They didn't do what people would have done, and didn't react as people would, and so I spent most of it going "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE". In Covenant the human characters make sense and have levels of personality to them. It's nothing on the scale of Alien 1-3, but they make sense and I like that. Hell, even Walter acted in ways that were like Bishop from Aliens, where as David was like Ash from Alien but taken in a MUCH MORE EXTREME DIRECTION. When Walter worked out what David had done, he basically called David out, said he was bonkers and that he morally had to stop him. That I liked.
David and everything he did during the movie + prior I hated. Though in the context of following on from what happened in Prometheus + the small back story they reveal of him, he sort of makes sense, but that no lesser makes him anything but one crazy motherfucker. I quite liked how questions are answered throughout. Why is there no animals or insects - answered, what in the hell happened to Shaw + David - answered, why are there all those statues - answered. On that aspect the movie did good.
Actually the only human character I didn't like was the new captain. I totally get why he picked to go to the planet. That made perfect sense. But then he should have shot David the second he put 2 and 2 together. He didn't. And why the hell did he do what David told him to do and walk over to egg pod. COME ON.
Oh and that bit where David told Walter that he would "finger" the flute was unintentionally hilarious.
So David took the black goo virus and then engineered it over the 10 years to result in the xenos we know and love - Hmm. That just fucks with every book and comic done in the universe. I'd have liked it more if the xenos were just that way from the get go, or maybe that the space jockeys had done them that way from day 1. That wouldn't have fucked with anything at all. But this way does.
So now you CAN take off a facehugger if your quick enough / get help, but then you still get a xeno come out anyway? That's just stupid. Ripley in Aliens + Alien Resurrection had a face hugger do that and she got out of it totally fine.
And we got this movie instead of Alien 5. Grrr.
On the other hand we at least got the conclusion to what happened post Prometheus, but we're still not up to LV426. I feel very much in 2 minds currently. Must think more on this.
Was AvP cannon? I thought it was. And this royally fucks with that.
The xenos being engineered by the Space Jockeys made more sense. They certainly could never have been a natural species to have developed. They'd have completely killed off ALL life. At least with them being a bio weapon made sense. Though the Prometheus SJ version took about 2 jumps (first had to be digested somehow, then the person had to go have sex with someone, and THEN we get 1 giant face hugger which THEN gives us a sort of xeno) which was very inefficient. David's version speeds that up. But still Ridley mucked it up.
So in my opinion this movie is nowhere near as bad as people have been saying it is. Yes the David stuff is bad, but the rest is really good. Oh and the new white xenos were superior to the final black ones (especially if you go by kill count in the movie). Why did he deem them a failed experiment? They were almost bullet proof which the black xenos definitely are not (from Aliens onward anyway). As to which would work better as a bio weapon is debatable. I'd think the white ones would be more effective, though they don't appear to have a queen. Who/what created the spores on the ground? The virus released I guess.
Lastly when this gets to DVD/Blu-Ray release time, they REALLY need to have a version that has all the extra videos that only made it to youtube be put into the actual damn movie. You'd see James Franco for more than 2 seconds, and several bits in the movie would make wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more sense, plus it assists in more humanizing the characters, as you see them in more fun, stress free situations.
7/10 for me.
