Nuth on 7/2/2014 at 13:10
I think flight sim games are what caused my need for 1st person perspective. Those were my addiction prior to Ultima Underworld. There's a huge difference for me between 1st and 3rd person when playing flight sims, and I think that sort of warped me for other types of games, too.
GodzillaX8 on 7/2/2014 at 14:28
Quote Posted by demagogue
I don't know if the term "immersion" by itself is the most useful way to explain it; since it's hard to define it very precisely and opinions vary. But IMO there is a definite difference in how 1P and 3P gameplay *feels*, whatever term you use for it. 3P is more abstracted from the action, more like a boardgame and you're sitting above your piece moving it around, whereas 1P is *you* in the world moving yourself around. And they're fun (or flop) in their own different way, characteristic with that feel. Actually I think it's a bit more complicated than that, where some mechanics are more abstracted and some are more concrete and you'd really go mechanic by mechanic if you were being precise about it, but that gets to the gist of it.
The point is, I don't think one is necessarily better or worse than the other, just they feel different, and sometimes you're in the mood for one type of action, and other times for the other. The first time I played Thief back in 1998, I actually wanted it to be 3P because I'd just played Tomb Raider and wanted to move the PC like that. But having played Thief for a long time now, my gut reaction is wanting it to be 1P, because that's what gets me into the movement and gameplay. While I think everybody has a similar sense of the difference in feel, it's still a pretty subjective thing whether one gets into it or not TBH, I think.
I think Mass Effect is one of the most immersive game experiences I've ever had, and it's 3rd person. I don't think it being first person would have improved that in any way.
bartekb81 on 7/2/2014 at 15:02
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
I think Mass Effect is one of the most immersive game experiences I've ever had, and it's 3rd person. I don't think it being first person would have improved that in any way.
Maybe not, but this is a different game. Thief is meant to be played in FIRST person. And it's not about perspective only - in Thief there's also this feeling of total loneliness and isolation when you are roaming dark, huge levels. And then, first person camera intensifies these feelings greatly (when I'm playing Thief I believe that I'm seeing through Garrett's eyes)!
PS. Deadly Shadows introduced us with TPP but it wasn't proper or immersive at all, IMO.
FatSpy on 7/2/2014 at 15:18
Quote Posted by bartekb81
Maybe not, but this is a different game. Thief is meant to be played in FIRST person. And it's not about perspective only - in Thief there's also this feeling of total loneliness and isolation when you are roaming dark, huge levels. And then, first person camera intensifies these feelings greatly (when I'm playing Thief I believe that I'm seeing through Garrett's eyes)!
PS. Deadly Shadows introduced us with TPP but it wasn't proper or immersive at all, IMO.
I'm not sure about that. Resident evil (the original ones) where in third person, however that was more of a clever use of camera angles to bring out the dark atmosphere and show the entire room so you where constantly reminded that you where alone, rather than over the shoulder.
Jenuall on 7/2/2014 at 16:20
I suppose a fair amount of this is going to come down to personal interpretation of the word "immersed", or indeed what it is that you are being immersed in. I agree that many third person games can provide an immersive experience - you feel a part of the universe and are affected by the things that occur to the characters. But personally I wouldn't ever feel like I was a PART of that universe.
Playing Thief from a 1st person perspective makes you genuinely feel like you are there doing the things that are happening on screen - rather than some ethereal director issuing commands to those who occupy the universe.
Not sure this is a useful analogy but it just came to my mind - if I'm watching someone take part in a swimming race then I can react to the event unfolding, feel an emotional connection to those participating, and be moved by the outcome. But at the end of the day I'm not the one who's getting wet!
GodzillaX8 on 8/2/2014 at 03:46
Quote Posted by Jenuall
I suppose a fair amount of this is going to come down to personal interpretation of the word "immersed", or indeed what it is that you are being immersed in. I agree that many third person games can provide an immersive experience - you feel a part of the universe and are affected by the things that occur to the characters. But personally I wouldn't ever feel like I was a PART of that universe.
Playing Thief from a 1st person perspective makes you genuinely feel like you are there doing the things that are happening on screen - rather than some ethereal director issuing commands to those who occupy the universe.
Not sure this is a useful analogy but it just came to my mind - if I'm watching someone take part in a swimming race then I can react to the event unfolding, feel an emotional connection to those participating, and be moved by the outcome. But at the end of the day I'm not the one who's getting wet!
I think the problem here lies in the fact that I can very easily feel like I am the character on screen by suspending disbelief.
Pyrian on 8/2/2014 at 04:02
Really? Interesting. This topic always comes down to being very subjective.
jtbalogh on 8/2/2014 at 08:43
Something objective about views.
Third-person lets me see more of the environment around the player and suspend the fear of getting caught most of the time. A continuous satisfaction of more comfort and safety.
First-person has a limited view that adds more fear and anxiety of what is behind me and around a corner often. This includes a third-person view forcing the camera into a first-person view when hugging a wall. A continuous satisfaction of being more alert.
Becomes subjective as to how much comfort or anxiety each player wants out of the game.
Immersion is a separate issue from the views. At its most basic, anything that keeps me from turning off the game will get me immersed. Anything that feels like an accomplishment positively or negatively will get me immersed. Someone can always find some piece of the game immersive for whatever reason whether staring at the avatar (third person) or staring at zombie hands (first person). At the other extreme, there is no immersion and the player just stops playing a boring or badly designed avatar or zombie hands.
Platinumoxicity on 8/2/2014 at 11:19
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
Immersion is a separate issue from the views. At its most basic, anything that keeps me from turning off the game will get me immersed. Anything that feels like an accomplishment positively or negatively will get me immersed. Someone can always find some piece of the game immersive for whatever reason whether staring at the avatar (third person) or staring at zombie hands (first person). At the other extreme, there is no immersion and the player just stops playing a boring or badly designed avatar or zombie hands.
Some people find it more immersive when they can see the actual body of the character moving, even if it's in 3rd person. In a game like Thief 1, they immediately notice that the character is just invisible and floating, because they inexplicably begin to question the existence of their body. For me, the inability to see the character's body not moving exactly like how I would imagine it to move in the context of what I'm doing, is more immersive. I don't pay attention to the visibility of the body, because I know it's there. I don't do that in real life either. I suppose those who actually prefer body awareness for immersion, tend to look down every morning to see if they are still attached to a body. :D
This is why I hate the interaction animations in Thief 4. You go in front of the door, and when you are in range, you get to start an animation that opens the door. In the previous Thief games, and real life, there is no such unrealistic delay because you already hold out your hand and grab the interactable object in advance, and you are ready to activate it immediately. A game with body awareness like in Thief 4, is simply unable to visualize that properly,
so forcing the visualization compromises the interaction.jtbalogh on 9/2/2014 at 01:26
True Plat, and I will not be giving in so easily to abberant decisions. However, immersion is still too broad to define and EM can dismiss our complaints when players claim to be immersed with other features in the game and not turn off the game.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
A game with body awareness like in Thief 4, is simply unable to visualize that properly,
so forcing the visualization compromises the interaction.We are living as EM's guinnie pig for experiments and they will sacrifice thief. In 20 years, technology may visualize that properly so EM wants to be that pioneer with Thief 4. I hope to still be alive as evidence that bad interactions for 20 years were not exactly a great compromise to be proud of in thief. Testing the animation in other more gimicky games should have sufficed and not sacrifice thief.
