june gloom on 31/3/2013 at 22:26
Quote Posted by Starker
Go read the page. Or, better yet, listen to the talk.
Or you could tell me instead of just dumping a link in my lap and expecting that to suffice as an argument.
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 22:30
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Or you could tell me instead of just dumping a link in my lap and expecting that to suffice as an argument.
In short, by sapping intrinsic motivation to play games.
Renzatic on 31/3/2013 at 22:30
In this instance, I don't disagree. When I think of achievements, I don't think of the "kill 50 guys with a shotgun" types. Those are dumb to me. They're not really "achievements" I think of the ones that work more like trophies. Like Super Meat Boy's The Real End, which shows you completed the game the hard way. It rewards you for something you'd do through the normal course of gameplay. It's a bragging point, a "yeah, that's right. I did it" than something completely useless like the abovementioned example.
Those I don't think are harmful. They're just another form of high scores. If Thief IV proves to be ultra difficult, and you get an achievement for beating it, that doesn't distract from the core game itself at all. Doesn't make you go out and get an achievement by jumping into the river 16 times.
june gloom on 31/3/2013 at 22:37
Quote Posted by Starker
In short, by sapping intrinsic motivation to play games.
How? You keep making this claim but you don't actually explain how this happens. I looked at that thing you linked and it's a whole lot of conjecture without a lot of citable sources, written by a guy who's mostly famous for a game he's yet to release. Your claims are equally unfounded and unexplained. Either back your shit up or back your shit out. I'm not going to suddenly start agreeing with you just because you keep repeating yourself.
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 22:39
Quote Posted by Renzatic
In this instance, I don't disagree. When I think of achievements, I don't think of the "kill 50 guys with a shotgun" types. Those are dumb to me. They're not really "achievements" I think of the ones that work more like trophies. Like Super Meat Boy's The Real End, which shows you completed the game the hard way. It rewards you for something you'd do through the normal course of gameplay. It's a bragging point, a "yeah, that's right. I did it" than something completely useless like the abovementioned example.
Those I don't think are harmful. They're just another form of high scores. If Thief IV proves to be ultra difficult, and you get an achievement for beating it, that doesn't distract from the core game itself at all. Doesn't make you go out and get an achievement by jumping into the river 16 times.
That's something that he talks about more in the talk. Basically, not all achievements are equal and some can actually have a positive effect. He also outlines how to minimize this effect based on the research.
Renzatic on 31/3/2013 at 22:54
Quote Posted by Starker
That's something that he talks about more in the talk. Basically, not all achievements are equal and some can actually have a positive effect. He also outlines how to minimize this effect based on the research.
If I were to get down to the root of the issue, I'd say the biggest problem is no one person can dictate exactly how someone should enjoy a game. Like all of us here, we're all immersion fans. We like to get into the games we play. Get involved in the fiction of the world. Become a part of it. With that in mind, it's understandable why some of you would have issues with at least the concept of achievements. Our opinions on the matter might differ, but we're all coming from that same point.
But what if someone does enjoy the games just for the achievements they can get? Yeah, it's weird to us, but who are we to say it's wrong? People play games for different reasons. Sometimes even the same games. Do you like a game for the story? Do you like the game for the challenge? Do you like the game as yet another way to up your badge count on Xbox Live? It's a subjective thing. It's something no one can be right about. We all have different tastes.
As for achievements, some do work better than other. But as long as the developers themselves treat them more as a fun aside bonus to the game they're trying to make, rather than a vehicle for more achievements, then I don't think they're harmful whatsoever. If you don't like them, then turn them off. The achievements themselves have done nothing to harm the core concepts of the game you're playing.
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 23:05
Quote Posted by Renzatic
The achievements themselves have done nothing to harm the core concepts of the game you're playing.
Not core concepts, perhaps, but how about game environment and player behaviour? Think of multiplayer games, for example. Does the guy grinding shotgun kills really not affect anyone else?
Goldmoon Dawn on 31/3/2013 at 23:07
Quote Posted by Renzatic
If I were to get down to the root of the issue... ...If you don't like them, then turn them off. The achievements themselves have done nothing to harm the core concepts of the game you're playing.
So, its as simple as it was from the start.
Achievements that are built into the design of the Missions themselves will suck, and no option to turn them off will suck even more. We "know" that these achievements will have a toggle (awaiting official confirmation?), and whether or not situations that perpetuate them will be in the design is also still open. What else is there to say about it?
Tomi on 31/3/2013 at 23:09
Quote Posted by Starker
Well, according to the research, even thinking about a reward reduces intrinsic motivation.
So turn off the achievement notifications and you won't ever have to even think about rewards. Problem solved.
Was your intrinsic motivation reduced every time you completed a bonus objective in Thief? Did the "objective completed" sound effect bother you a lot? I thought that the bonus objectives were fun and it was nice when the game notified/rewarded me for doing something special.
Quote:
Basically, not all achievements are equal and some can actually have a positive effect.
So let's hope that all achievements in Thief 4 will have a positive effect, eh? :p
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 23:16
Quote Posted by dethtoll
How? You keep making this claim but you don't actually explain how this happens. I looked at that thing you linked and it's a whole lot of conjecture without a lot of citable sources, written by a guy who's mostly famous for a game he's yet to release. Your claims are equally unfounded and unexplained. Either back your shit up or back your shit out. I'm not going to suddenly start agreeing with you just because you keep repeating yourself.
(
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10589297)
