Renzatic on 31/3/2013 at 21:15
Quote:
2. Verbal, unexpected, informational feedback, increases free-choice and self-reported intrinsic motivation.
So don't read through the list of achievements.
It really is quite that simple, people. If you don't like them, you ignore them, and life goes on as usual. Having them in there does absolutely nothing to harm the game.
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 21:18
Quote Posted by Renzatic
So don't read through the list of achievements.
It really is quite that simple, people. If you don't like them, you ignore them, and life goes on as usual. Having them in there does absolutely nothing to harm the game.
While they might not be affecting me personally, the point is that they will hurt the game. They will literally make the game less fun. Why should I care? Because I care about the health of the industry, and while this kind of stuff primarily affects the AAA side, it bleeds over into the indie side as well.
june gloom on 31/3/2013 at 21:22
How? How will it make it less fun?
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 21:23
Quote Posted by dethtoll
How? How will it make it less fun?
Go read the page. Or, better yet, listen to the talk.
Tomi on 31/3/2013 at 21:28
Quote Posted by Starker
They [achievements] will literally make the game less fun.
How? :weird:
I don't think that you'll be able to unlock any new weapons or anything if you do these achievements (
knock out 5 guards while airborne to unlock the Super Blackjack!), so you can just toggle off the achievement notifications and you'll never have to worry about them. You won't miss out on any fun, because like you said earlier, the achievements are just silly virtual "badges".
Renzatic on 31/3/2013 at 21:34
Quote Posted by Starker
Go read the page. Or, better yet, listen to the talk.
Extrinsic motivators only motivate when you know about them. For instance, I rarely ever read through the achievements before I play a game. It's not something I think about all that much, and I usually get surprised when I see the notification pop up onscreen.
Oh. Hey. I did something. Cool.
But otherwise? Rarely ever is there anything in a game that's steering me towards an achievement like "kill 5 guards". It's not being forced upon me. It's just something I can do. And if I don't know about it, I won't know to go out of my way to do it. It'll just happen naturally during the course of gameplay if I just happen to complete a checkpoint on some invisible list running behind the scenes.
At worst, they're completely pointless. Like getting an achievement for picking up a gun for the first time. There's no reason for it. Dunno why the developers even included it other than to have achievements. But they don't disrupt gameplay by themselves, and developers don't design games like Thief, Deus Ex, Dishonored, Grimrock, Dark Souls, and what have you around them. They're entirely optional.
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 21:39
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Extrinsic motivators only motivate when you know about them. For instance, I rarely ever read through the achievements before I play a game. It's not something I think about all that much, and I usually get surprised when I see the notification pop up onscreen.
Oh. Hey. I did something. Cool.
But otherwise? Rarely ever is there anything in a game that's steering me towards an achievement like "kill 5 guards". It's not being forced upon me. It's just something I can do. And if I don't know about it, I won't know to go out of my way to do it. It'll just happen naturally during the course of gameplay if I just happen to complete a checkpoint on some invisible list running behind the scenes.
At worst, they're completely pointless. Like getting an achievement for picking up a gun for the first time. There's no reason for it. Dunno why the developers even included it other than to have achievements. But they don't disrupt gameplay by themselves, and developers don't design games like Thief, Deus Ex, Dishonored, Grimrock, Dark Souls, and what have you around them. They're entirely optional.
Well, according to the research, even thinking about a reward reduces intrinsic motivation. Also, bear in mind the nightmare scenario that he outlines.
Even if it doesn't affect you personally, it affects people around you, and it affects the industry. How much of an effect they have is unclear, more research is clearly needed, but there is no reason to embrace them.
Renzatic on 31/3/2013 at 21:48
Quote Posted by Starker
Well, according to the research, even thinking about a reward reduces intrinsic motivation. Also, bear in mind the nightmare scenario that he outlines.
I need to read through the rest of the article, but...
If I don't read through the achievements list, then I'm not thinking about the rewards. I'm just playing the game. There have only been a handful of games I've actually played for the achievements, and all of them have been action games based around a high score. Like Super Meat Boy, or Rayman Origins.
RPGs, Immersive Sims, games like that? The achievements are the furthest thing on my mind the first time through. I don't even approach them until well after I've beaten the game, and I'm checking out all the extra things I can do.
Quote:
Even if it doesn't affect you personally, it affects people around you, and it affects the industry. How much of an effect they have is unclear, more research is clearly needed, but there is no reason to embrace them.
Like I said, I haven't finished reading the article yet, but a lot of what I did read is based around "could" rather that "is". There are quite a few good points from what I've seen, and I don't necessarily disagree with the guy 100%, but here nearly 7-8 years after the wide introduction of achievements, I haven't seen the games that have come out since change in any way to accommodate them. They still play the same way they always have.
edit: if you really want to get meta about (olol big internet word smart people use...it's relevant and innovative), then going onto a messageboard like this and reading about community issued challenges is an extrinsic motivator, and leads to about the same end.
Neb on 31/3/2013 at 21:52
I enjoy checking out the Steam achievement stats while I'm getting heavily into a game - seeing how many have finished it, and how many haven't even made it past the early sections, etc.
I hated achievements when they first appeared, but it was entirely sentimental. They never ruined a game, especially when you can turn off notifications (on Steam at least.)
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 22:11
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Like I said, I haven't finished reading the article yet, but a lot of what I did read is based around "could" rather that "is". There are quite a few good points from what I've seen, and I don't necessarily disagree with the guy 100%, but here nearly 7-8 years after the wide introduction of achievements, I haven't seen the games that have come out since change in any way to accommodate them. They still play the same way they always have.
But if this research applies to achievements in video games, and he makes a very good case that it might, players who aren't ignoring them are being affected without even being aware that they are, and since we live in a connected world, this also changes the play environment for everyone else.
Also, here's an example of what kind of stuff he's talking about (5:07-6:00): (
http://youtu.be/pWfMjQKXZXk?t=5m7s)
