Beleg Cúthalion on 1/4/2013 at 11:21
Thief. Haha.
Judith on 1/4/2013 at 11:55
It doesn't falsify the internalization theory, it only shows that rewarding or punishing in certain contexts can give mixed or unexpected results. It doesn't exclude e.g. people looking at achievement list
of the game they like to get more from it, after they've seen the achievement notification on screen (assuming they don't know what it is yet). And that is an external impulse to trigger a set of reactions to strengthen the internal motivation.
Of course, a seasoned player can do that on his/her own, but games are less and less for "gamers". The goal is to develop a universal "language" of games so there is no such "gamer" term anymore. As you don't ask anyone if he/she's a "book reader" or "film viewer", because everyone is.
Starker on 1/4/2013 at 12:45
Quote Posted by Judith
It doesn't falsify the internalization theory, it only shows that rewarding or punishing in certain contexts can give mixed or unexpected results. It doesn't exclude e.g. people looking at achievement list
of the game they like to get more from it, after they've seen the achievement notification on screen (assuming they don't know what it is yet). And that is an external impulse to trigger a set of reactions to strengthen the internal motivation.
Of course, a seasoned player can do that on his/her own, but games are less and less for "gamers". The goal is to develop a universal "language" of games so there is no such "gamer" term anymore. As you don't ask anyone if he/she's a "book reader" or "film viewer", because everyone is.
The point is that by undermining intrinsic motivation to play games we may end up making them less fun for everyone concerned. The trouble is that people will do dull things for external motivators even if they end up enjoying it less. Just look at the gambling industry -- it's several times bigger than the video game industry and it's based on external rewards to a large degree.
SubJeff on 1/4/2013 at 13:15
This is a storm in a teacup.
Games are not going to be made to fit around achievements or "metrics". Metrics don't make money, good games do, and although "metrics" may tell developers about a game they aren't going to make devs build games around achievements. If anything they would make devs make better games because they can see the number of people that do action X. If anything a motivation killing effect is counter to this since people will do things they are motivated to do.
This entire line of investigation is a boring dead end.
Judith on 1/4/2013 at 13:38
Quote:
The point is that by undermining intrinsic motivation to play games we may end up making them less fun for everyone concerned.
The point is, noone in AAA sector does. It's like thinking all devs are idiots, jerks or all publishers are evil. Sure, there are some, but it's neither Zynga nor gambling sector or browser games. If metrics were used for everything they measure, the games would have been shipped half-done or wouldn't have endings. According to metrics less than 40% of the players finish games anyway.
Quote:
Games are not going to be made to fit around achievements or "metrics". Metrics don't make money, good games do, and although "metrics" may tell developers about a game they aren't going to make devs build games around achievements. If anything they would make devs make better games because they can see the number of people that do action X. If anything a motivation killing effect is counter to this since people will do things they are motivated to do.
This entire line of investigation is a boring dead end.
Yup, and this actually is undermining my intrinsic motivation to follow the discussion in this thread :)
Starker on 1/4/2013 at 13:42
Quote Posted by Judith
It's like thinking all devs are idiots, jerks or all publishers are evil. Sure, there are some, but it's neither Zynga nor gambling sector or browser games.
Right, and I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that all achievements are evil or that they make games unfun.
I think I've done more than enough to explain my viewpoint. Sapienti sat etc...
Just one last thing: (
http://chrishecker.com/Metrics_Fetishism)
june gloom on 1/4/2013 at 19:22
Quote Posted by Starker
I'm not saying that all achievements are evil or that they make games unfun.
Quote Posted by Starker
They will literally make the game less fun.
Your viewpoint, as you've marginally explained, is crazy, stupid, unfounded, and built on a premise that runs counter to reality. All of your claims are built on theoreticals, and thus far you have consistently failed to provide concrete examples of what you're talking about.
Starker on 1/4/2013 at 19:33
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Your viewpoint, as you've marginally explained, is crazy, stupid, unfounded, and built on a premise that runs counter to reality. All of your claims are built on theoreticals, and thus far you have consistently failed to provide concrete examples of what you're talking about.
Wow...
Why did I ever take you off my ignore list?
june gloom on 1/4/2013 at 19:47
Cry more. Or actually give me one of those concrete examples I've been asking you for. Oh wait, you can't, can you? Not won't -- can't, because your claims are utterly and totally baseless and you damn well know it.
SubJeff on 1/4/2013 at 20:39
I understand why you've gone down this route Starker, you read that article/saw that talk and bought into it.
I've read it too, and whilst I perfectly understand where it's coming from I disagree. It assumes at least one step too far.
