june gloom on 31/3/2013 at 23:34
You're making that claim like it was fact and not just a claim. Give me an example. Just one. You can do it, I believe in you.
Starker on 31/3/2013 at 23:54
Quote Posted by Tomi
Can you give us a concrete example of such an achievement then?
The "grind 50 dudes with a shotgun" example in the other video I posted. Basically, it suggests that because of the idea "when you do a task, you'll get a reward", you end up liking the task less and focusing more on the reward.
june gloom on 31/3/2013 at 23:57
You've made that claim so many times it's time to start backing it up. Give an example of where this has happened. Not a hypothetical. An actual example. It doesn't have to be scientific, but I want an actual example of that happening.
Tomi on 1/4/2013 at 00:17
Quote Posted by Starker
The "grind 50 dudes with a shotgun" example in the other video I posted. Basically, it suggests that because of the idea "when you do a task, you'll get a reward", you end up liking the task less and focusing more on the reward.
Well, that is a bad idea for an achievement indeed, just like all the achievements that you have to grind for. But I can't see them having anything like that in Thief (and not only because of the shotgun). However, if the player has no idea of such an achievement before they've done it, is it still such bad thing? People who like that sort of stuff may have a look at the list of achievements and then try to do as many of those as possible, and that's cool for them... But for those of us who don't really care, does it really matter whether there are achievements or not?
I can't really see how having achievements would
negatively affect anyone's gaming experience in any way.
june gloom on 1/4/2013 at 00:30
Yeah, exactly. Like, in Bioshock Infinite, there's achievements for killing a bunch of guys with one weapon or another. They have yet to actually affect how I play, because I tend to prefer the revolver and the repeater.
Starker on 1/4/2013 at 00:34
Quote Posted by Tomi
Well, that is a bad idea for an achievement indeed, just like all the achievements that you have to grind for. But I can't see them having anything like that in Thief (and not only because of the shotgun). However, if the player has no idea of such an achievement before they've done it, is it still such bad thing? People who like that sort of stuff may have a look at the list of achievements and then try to do as many of those as possible, and that's cool for them... But for those of us who don't really care, does it really matter whether there are achievements or not?
I can't really see how having achievements would
negatively affect anyone's gaming experience in any way.
The talk itself goes more in-depth about this:
(
http://www.myplick.com/view/91zFLZhKUOn/Chris-Heckers-Achievements-Considered-Harmful-GDC2010-Lecture)
Renzatic on 1/4/2013 at 00:42
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
So, its as simple as it was from the start.
Achievements that are built into the design of the Missions themselves will suck, and no option to turn them off will suck even more. We "know" that these achievements will have a toggle (awaiting official confirmation?), and whether or not situations that perpetuate them will be in the design is also still open. What else is there to say about it?
So far, I haven't seen a game where the level design was built around the achievements. Usually, they're just used as waypoint markers. Like I've completed this mission, beat this boss, collected this many collectible things. Sometimes you'll get one really weird, like climbing to the top of the bridge in Dishonored. They're never directly tied to the games themselves in an intrinsic way, they just play off things that are already in there.
Like if they were in Thief 1 & 2, you might get an achievement for collecting 100% of the loot in 3 missions. The game itself would still play exactly the same, you just get an extra bonus thrown in there for doing some random thing.
Now if game developers did start designing all their games around achievements, regardless of the genre, I could understand why you and Starker would be worried. But right now at least, that isn't happening. Most developers aren't going to go out of their way to make an expansive, deep RPG based around Xbox Live trophy whoring. It'll have achievements, sure. But they'll be playing a far distance second fiddle to the core gameplay mechanics.
SubJeff on 1/4/2013 at 00:49
What that research fails to address is that we play the game as its own reward. I played Dishonored because I found it fun so that was the reward for me. That there is a parallel but not-interfering reward system also in play is of no consequence to me.
This is like being watched whilst practicing a skill; you might feel pressure if you know you are being watched but if you don't know then the fact you are being watched has no effect.
Goldmoon Dawn on 1/4/2013 at 00:52
Quote Posted by Renzatic
So far, I haven't seen a game where the level design was built around the achievements... Most developers aren't going to go out of their way to make an expansive, deep RPG based around Xbox Live trophy whoring.
OK, I am realising that it wouldnt be a game wrecker for me, but playing without connecting to the internet first is something I will pass on initially. After the community reports how the final product is, maybe that too could change. Time will tell this tale for me...
Starker on 1/4/2013 at 01:01
Quote Posted by Renzatic
But they'll be playing a far distance second fiddle to the core gameplay mechanics.
Actually, come to think of it, it could affect core gameplay mechanics too.
If achievements change player behaviour, that also changes the metrics that are collected, and AAA is pretty metrics driven these days.
