june gloom on 7/6/2009 at 18:56
Thank you for proving my own argument for me.
And just fyi: similar numbers do not mean a correlation. Perhaps part of the 22% of Repubs against the death penalty are pro-life, and the other part are not! Perhaps a good chunk of Repubs who
are pro-death penalty are not pro-life!
You don't fucking know. Don't pretend that you do. Taking a position on something does not automatically indicate a certain position on something else. This is why rational debate is dead. "YOU ARE FOR X THEREFORE YOU MUST BE FOR Y" is the basis of your whole argument. That's a logical fallacy and you should feel bad.
Phatose on 7/6/2009 at 21:03
Quote Posted by kidmystik101
Children (humans) learn, remember things, experience emotion. A fetus sits there and...exists.
A very bold assertion - unfortunately nothing more. And the opposition already claims quite the opposite, so we're back where we started.
Quote Posted by Starfall
After you tell us what level of increased risk is acceptable, be sure to let us know why you, and not the woman, get to make that decision.
I don't - society at large can, and does. Largely because there is at least a chance that fetus is human, or at the very least human enough to merit society's protection the way the rest of us do. A 50% increased death rate is certainly an unpleasant prospect - but that's still a hell of a lot better then the fetuses chance of surviving an abortion.
The woman doesn't get to make the decision all by herself the same reason the rest of us don't get carte blanche to do whatever we feel necessary to protect ourselves - there are other concerns at work.
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Yeah, god forbid anyone actually stop yelling I'M RIGHT NO SHUT UP I'M RIGHT and sit and think about their position.
If we were wise, we'd be funding artificial womb research and research on the techniques to transfer a fetus to that artificial womb, and sidestep all this moral gray area through technological mean.
Kolya on 7/6/2009 at 22:06
Quote Posted by Phatose
If we were wise, we'd be funding artificial womb research and research on the techniques to transfer a fetus to that artificial womb, and sidestep all this moral gray area through technological mean.
This is an awesome idea! It's just as awesome as you comparing a woman's womb to a basement with a sentient robot in it. Obviously you have a great grasp on the situation. I'm glad people like you are out there arguing on the internet to help confused pregnant women to make the right decision. Pro-robot.
Aja on 7/6/2009 at 22:18
hey I'm pro robot
Starrfall on 7/6/2009 at 22:40
Quote Posted by Phatose
I don't - society at large can, and does.
Wait what exactly are you talking about here? Cause states in the US are not permitted to ban abortion (or impose "undue burdens" on the woman's ability to get an abortion) prior to the fetus becoming viable. After viability they can ban it but have to leave exceptions for the life of the mother. If you're talking about
all abortions and are saying society's word wins I think you lose.
Phatose on 7/6/2009 at 22:51
Quote Posted by Kolya
This is an awesome idea! It's just as awesome as you comparing a woman's womb to a basement with a sentient robot in it. Obviously you have a great grasp on the situation. I'm glad people like you are out there arguing on the internet to help confused pregnant women to make the right decision. Pro-robot.
Wow, look, a personal attack! Very helpful to the issue indeed! Certainly that's going to help those pregnant women even more!
You're amazing amount of concern for those women shines right through, I mean, silly me, suggesting maybe there is a way we can let them get those fetuses that are so much trouble out of their body without killing anything. What was I thinking?
Quote Posted by Starfall
Wait what exactly are you talking about here? Cause states in the US are not permitted to ban abortion (or impose "undue burdens" on the woman's ability to get an abortion) prior to the fetus becoming viable. After viability they can ban it but have to leave exceptions for the life of the mother. If you're talking about all abortions and are saying society's word wins I think you lose.
Starfall, take a look at what you've got there. The supreme court drew a fairly arbitrary line in the sand in Roe V Wade. After that line though...
You're back at the life of the mother exception - yet, as we've been over, pregnancy is a statistically a risk to the mother's life in all cases. So realistically, if it were that simple, there would be no bans on abortions of any types, period. Clearly, the existence of the law and the required life of the mother exceptions demonstrate that society is taking a stand on the acceptable level of risk.
Right there, society is making a judgment call on exactly that issue. And I bet if you look around, you'll find that pretty much all activities involve a level of risk, and social norms define an acceptable level of risk in nearly all situations. Construction code, traffic laws, acceptable rat turds in food....the concept of society setting acceptable limits on what amount of risk is acceptable is embedded into the law everywhere.
SubJeff on 8/6/2009 at 00:24
Quote Posted by Phatose
So realistically, if it were that simple, there would be no bans on abortions of any types, period.
Its not that simple but that doesn't make the "no abortion" crew, right. I'm primarily disagreeing with people like Displacer who are just ignorant on all aspects of the subject. Of course there shouldn't just be carte blanche to abort whenever for whatever, but similarly there shouldn't be the opposite.
I believe a foetus that can survive independent of the mother should not be aborted without good reason. But if there is good reason...
Starrfall on 8/6/2009 at 00:32
^ our "viability" line is pretty much when the fetus can survive without the mother (which I think is currently judged to be in the low-20's weeks wise)
Quote Posted by Phatose
Starfall, take a look at what you've got there. The supreme court drew a fairly arbitrary line in the sand in Roe V Wade. After that line though...
That particular line isn't actually from Roe.
And what you're left with in the earlier stages is that a woman can get an abortion for any reason at all. So before viability, society apparently declares that the fetus loses every time.
As for post-viability, you don't actually get to say society has made a judgment call after viability just because states
can ban abortion except for the health exception. Just because they can doesn't mean they
do. Taken to a more local level you might have something, but that cuts both ways.
SubJeff on 8/6/2009 at 00:37
In other news I just read the tags on this thread and some of them are the laffos. Well done TTLG, you (almost) make me smile every time. goddamnit it displacer
